Why Do Animals Experience Pain? (questioning a viewpoint)

Terry wrote:

Wilso wrote:
Pain is nothing more than your brain's way of telling you that what is causing the pain could be harmful. It makes sense that animals feel pain, so that they know to fight or runaway from the pain causing stimulus.

Wilso (and Linkat), The fight or flight instinct is not contingent on feeling pain. Fights are instigated by biological drives, not pain, and many animals will fight to the death no matter how badly injured they are.

The instinct to run from predators is innate. If a rabbit heeded to be bitten before learning to flee, it would not survive its first meeting with a fox.

Pain induces an animal to lick a wound, scratch when bitten by a parasite, and learn the pecking order.

But many kinds of pain serve no purpose since the animal can do nothing to alleviate it and can only suffer in silence.

I wasn't suggesting that pain is the ONLY thing that will make an animal fight. And I don't see anything in my post that could lead to that conclusion.

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Terry wrote:

Wilso wrote:
Pain is nothing more than your brain's way of telling you that what is causing the pain could be harmful. It makes sense that animals feel pain, so that they know to fight or runaway from the pain causing stimulus.

Wilso (and Linkat), The fight or flight instinct is not contingent on feeling pain. Fights are instigated by biological drives, not pain, and many animals will fight to the death no matter how badly injured they are.

The instinct to run from predators is innate. If a rabbit heeded to be bitten before learning to flee, it would not survive its first meeting with a fox.

Pain induces an animal to lick a wound, scratch when bitten by a parasite, and learn the pecking order.

But many kinds of pain serve no purpose since the animal can do nothing to alleviate it and can only suffer in silence.

I wasn't suggesting that pain is the ONLY thing that will make an animal fight. And I don't see anything in my post that could lead to that conclusion.

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Linkat wrote:

After Jesus' resurrection, he stated that the whole family of creation is included in God's saving love. After his death and resurrection, he tells his disciples: "Go into the whole world and proclaim the gospel to every creature" (Mark 16:15). Mark doesn't say "to every human being," but "to every creature"!

The NIV translates this as "to all creation" and the NLT as "to everyone, everywhere." Since there is no record of Jesus or any disciples preaching to animals, Jesus liekly meant "to all people" and nothing more.

I would be surprised if the God of the Bible let dogs into heaven, since they were most often referred to as scavengers of human flesh and other unclean meat.

Exodus 22:31
You are to be my holy people. So do not eat the meat of an animal torn by wild beasts; throw it to the dogs.

1 Kings 14:11
'Dogs will eat those belonging to Jeroboam who die in the city, and the birds of the air will feed on those who die in the country. The LORD has spoken!'

1 Kings 21:19
Say to him, 'This is what the LORD says: Have you not murdered a man and seized his property?' Then say to him, 'This is what the LORD says: In the place where dogs licked up Naboth's blood, dogs will lick up your blood-yes, yours!' "

Matthew 7:6
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.

Revelation 22:14-15
Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs [this may refer to male prostitutes], those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

But it seems that God does indeed like animals, preferably well-done:

Numbers 29
It is the beginning of the Festival of Shelters, a seven-day festival to the LORD. 13That day you must present a special whole burnt offering by fire, very pleasing to the LORD. It will consist of thirteen young bulls, two rams, and fourteen one-year-old male lambs, all with no physical defects. 14Each of these offerings must be accompanied by a grain offering of choice flour mixed with olive oil--five quarts for each of the thirteen bulls, three quarts for each of the two rams, 15and two quarts for each of the fourteen lambs. 16You must also sacrifice a male goat as a sin offering, in addition to the regular daily burnt offering with its accompanying grain offering and drink offering.

[Similar sacrifices were made each day of the festival.]

1 Chronicles 29
21The next day they brought a thousand bulls, a thousand rams, and a thousand male lambs as burnt offerings to the LORD. They also brought drink offerings and many other sacrifices on behalf of Israel.

2 Chronicles 29
32The people brought to the LORD seventy bulls, one hundred rams, and two hundred lambs for burnt offerings. 33They also brought six hundred bulls and three thousand sheep as sacrifices. 34But there were too few priests to prepare all the burnt offerings, so their relatives the Levites helped them until the work was finished and until more priests had been purified.

Ezra 6:17
During the dedication ceremony for the Temple of God, one hundred young bulls, two hundred rams, and four hundred lambs were sacrificed. And twelve male goats were presented as a sin offering for the twelve tribes of Israel.

Animal sacrifice was performed on Jesus' behalf, and the practice continued long after his death until the destruction of the temple:

Luke 2
22Then it was time for the purification offering, as required by the law of Moses after the birth of a child; so his parents took him to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord. 23The law of the Lord says, "If a woman's first child is a boy, he must be dedicated to the Lord." 24So they offered a sacrifice according to what was required in the law of the Lord--"either a pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons."

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mesquite wrote:

For those of you that believe in this concept of a soul that goes on into an afterlife.

At what age does this soul begin, newborn, 3 years, puberty?

What happens in the case of senility/dementia when what was recognized as the essence of a person vanishes before death.?

What about mental illness?

What about brain damage due to accident?

And now we are talking about animals with souls? I can see how we become attached to some of the domesticated animals, but surely there must be a bottom limit. Does the flea on the dog also have a soul?

The human soul, within the individual, appears as the direct consequence of the union of sperm and oocyte to form the single zygote. Prior to that the souls of oocyte and sperm are distinct entities within the germ tissue.

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Wilso, you said that pain tells animals when to fight or run away.

I said that pain is not the instigator of the fight-or-flight response, since by the time pain is felt it is usually too late to flee and pain neither causes fights nor stops them.

Certainly pain can be used to make horses buck, injured dogs bite the hand that is trying to help them, and bulls angry enough to charge a matador, but these are not natural situations. When is pain ever the initiator of fights in nature?

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Terry wrote:

Wilso, you said that pain tells animals when to fight or run away.

I said that pain is not the instigator of the fight-or-flight response, since by the time pain is felt it is usually too late to flee and pain neither causes fights nor stops them.

Certainly pain can be used to make horses buck, injured dogs bite the hand that is trying to help them, and bulls angry enough to charge a matador, but these are not natural situations. When is pain ever the initiator of fights in nature?

The critical elements are the neurotransmitters, not the pain receptors.

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Miller, 2/3 of fertilized cells fail to develop into fetuses, and 15% of pregnancies end in miscarriage. What happens to these alleged souls?

My guess is that if souls exist, they begin at the point in fetal brain development where consciousness becomes possible, no sooner than 24 weeks gestation.

For animals, my guess is that souls exist where consciousness exists. Yeast cells have no brains, no way to experience consciousness, and therefore no souls.

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Miller wrote:

The critical elements are the neurotransmitters, not the pain receptors.

Care to expound on that statement? Of what use is the transmission of pain impulses if there is nothing to "feel" it?

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JLNobody, animals can indeed anticipate pain as well as pleasure, at least dogs can. Mine dreads baths and visits to the vet but gets excited if she thinks we might be going for a walk. Rats and other animals learn to anticipate and avoid electric shocks. Repeated shocks that they can do nothing to avoid cause great stress.

They may not understand why they experience pain or be able to do anything about it, but I do not think that they need a degree in psychology in order to suffer.

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SCoates wrote:

I believe it does. And in answer to your other questions, I believe the best logical answer (in defense of a soul, that is) would be that it is somewhat subject to the body in which it resides. The soul lived before this life, but cannot remember it, because it is subject to the memories of its physical brain. So even when the brain starts to cripple, the soul will remember in the next life, so the person is not truly lost.

Are you describing recycled souls (reincarnation)? For that idea to work there must be some process such as soul division going on to account for how it would work in an ever increasing population. Of course there is always the possibility that many folk are walking around soulless.:wink:

Quote:

Same for physical aspects. If a body loses an arm, the soul is still whole, but it is limited by the armless body until it leaves that body. I assume the soul would be able to see and feel emotions, and our bodies were designed to meet those needs. That theory supports why there is a physical reason why people feel happiness or sadness or any other emotion like spiritual experiences, without discounting such things as actually being based in spirit.

You are describing physical problems unrelated to the brain. I was asking about brain problems such as dementia. Does a multiple personality schizophrenic have multiple souls or are you saying that the soul is separate from the brain thought processes?

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truth
Terry, I don't want to split hairs, but I do think that the "anticipation" my dog felt when he saw me with the brush, bucket and hose was a simple "association" of discomfort with these tools. Now you may argue, as did B.F.Skinner (and maybe Wm. James with his "associationism"--I've never read it), a kind of stimulus-response situation. There may be some truth to that. But I am talking about the capacity of humans to have a generalized notion of the danger of pain from a situation, a conceptual principle, as it were. Because of this capacity, humans can make plans to avoid abstract categories of pain-generating situations. Other animals can't. They must be faced with the concrete situation (stimulus) before they take measures to evade it (response).

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Miller wrote:

mesquite wrote:
For those of you that believe in this concept of a soul that goes on into an afterlife.

At what age does this soul begin, newborn, 3 years, puberty?

What happens in the case of senility/dementia when what was recognized as the essence of a person vanishes before death.?

What about mental illness?

What about brain damage due to accident?

And now we are talking about animals with souls? I can see how we become attached to some of the domesticated animals, but surely there must be a bottom limit. Does the flea on the dog also have a soul?

The human soul, within the individual, appears as the direct consequence of the union of sperm and oocyte to form the single zygote. Prior to that the souls of oocyte and sperm are distinct entities within the germ tissue.

That is interesting. I know it is a belief that is not and cannot be based on evidence, but I am assuming you feel this way because of some views on abortion which required you to determine which point the essence of a human begins and ends.

Along those same lines of thought, if animals also have souls (by the joining of zygotes) then what about bacteria and viruses? Is it only things with gametes that go to heaven and have souls? If so, what about worms (which reproduce with themselves) or clones?

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Mesquite, it does depend on your definition of "soul." My understanding of the word is, in part, the essense of us that makes us aware. A robot would never be sentient, no matter how well programmed it was (although I must admit, Data was a bit of an enigma on this matter). That "awareness" would include intelligence, memories, emotions, and so on. That is included in the package by my understanding. If it were not, then I am confused as to what is mean by "soul." Following that definition, my above thoughts would have to apply. For example, although I do not support reincarnation, if we assume that we indeed are reincarnated, then logically we can deduce that the bodies we are born into hamper the potential of the soul, since we do not remember any of our former lives. If we were reincarnated into animals then the innate intelligence of our souls would change with respect to whichever animal we became, otherwise monkies would be building houses, and so forth. My statement is not "Souls are hampered by bodies" but "If there are souls, they are obviously hampered by bodies."
As for your second comment, there was no reason to confine myself solely to the brain. Perhaps if we had defined "soul" as meaning the brain, but we have not.

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To comment on your initial question which portal quotes above, from a christian perspective ("a" not "the") God is the father of our spirits, and sends them into the bodies on earth as they are created, and there are still plenty of souls of animals and people who have not yet had a chance to come down. Again, I am only throwing that out as a belief which would answer your initial question.

Along the lines which Portal has drawn, if we say that every living thing has a sole, then what about the two gametes which come together to form a zygote (if I understand my physiology) once they combine do they only have one soul, or are they now two souls in one body? Do each of our cells have their own soul? Where is the line drawn? (Sorry to sit on both sides of the fence, but it is more entertaining.)

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SCoates, The whole idea of a soul that exists past the death of the human body makes no sense whatever to me. That is why I posed the questions to those that do have these beliefs.

Your answers flip flop with each post as if you cannot remember which position you are trying to support and I am not talking about the last post in which you admit to fishing. Are you practicing to become a politician?

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I'm trying to support a position? OHHH!! Now I understand.

Do you think I'd make a good polotician? I'm also really good at lying.

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SCoates:
You can't be a flip flopper and a liar, as all vacancys in that field have been taken up by poloticians. I would say, if you are trying to be both, you are only a apprentice polotician.

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I am a Jack of all suits, but a King of none.

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This topic is so speculative, and the answers to it vary so much depending on personal belief that what I want out of this thread is more of a discussion and sharing of views than an argument. I think there are too many potential viewpoints for argument here (although you are welcome to try), so I don't care if anybody sits on both sides of the fence or just feels like dropping by and sharing.

Another thing I find interesting is that members within religious sects seem to have dissenting views on animal souls.

It seems hard to reconcile the meaning of existence for other physical beings within a religious belief system designed for humans.

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Long ago there was a topic on a Prodigy forum called rainbow bridge. It got it's name from this poem

Quote:

Rainbow Bridge

Just this side of heaven is a place called Rainbow Bridge.

When an animal dies that has been especially close to someone here, that pet goes to Rainbow
Bridge.
There are meadows and hills for all of our special friends so they can run and play together.
There is plenty of food, water and sunshine, and our friends are warm and comfortable.

All the animals who had been ill and old are restored to health and vigor; those who were hurt
or maimed are made whole and strong again, just as we remember them in our dreams of
days and times gone by.
The animals are happy and content, except for one small thing; they each miss someone very
special to them, who had to be left behind.

They all run and play together, but the day comes when one suddenly stops and looks into the
distance. His bright eyes are intent; His eager body quivers. Suddenly he begins to run from
the group, flying over the green grass, his legs carrying him faster and faster.

You have been spotted, and when you and your special friend finally meet, you cling together
in joyous reunion, never to be parted again. The happy kisses rain upon your face; your hands
again caress the beloved head, and you look once more into the trusting eyes of your pet, so
long gone from your life but never absent from your heart.

Then you cross Rainbow Bridge together....

Author unknown...

There is now a website to help deal with the grief of pet loss.

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Why Do Animals Experience Pain? (questioning a viewpoint)

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