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Wed 17 Mar, 2004 01:43 am
It is said that animals do not have souls.
It is also said that the reason g-d allows suffering on the earth is to test us, to give us the right to exercise our free will and challenge us. That way, we are responsible for directing our soul to heaven or not.
But if animals don't have souls, why would g-d plague the animals? There are some viruses and bacteria that only affect animals, and not mankind.
If g-d is a kind and omnipotent g-d, why would he create/allow suffering to happen in things without souls?
Perhaps it's not that animals feel pain, but how we interpret them feeling pain.
Do you ever watch Animal Planet? I don't, much, but my wife does quite a bit. If I watch one crocodile hunter show a week, well, that's a lot. But let's take Steve and Terry Irwin for example. They truly love and care about the animals they work with. Steve has put a lot of time and energy into educating people about all sorts of animals. Should an animal be in pain, he would certainly have a problem with it, and would tkae measures to make sure the animal was out of pain.
And that's just one person on one show. There's plenty more out there. I catch bits and pieces of Animal Precinct before coming to work, and a lot of poeple on that show care just as much as Steve Irwin does.
So I guess what I'm trying to say is, it's just another hardship for us to endure.
"If g-d is a kind and omnipotent g-d, why would he create/allow suffering to happen in things without souls?"
S/he wouldn't.
Although, I suppose the satndard answer might be something along the lines of "pain is a warning signal - without pain animals would not learn to avoid dangers etc."
Pain is nothing more than your brain's way of telling you that what is causing the pain could be harmful. It makes sense that animals feel pain, so that they know to fight or runaway from the pain causing stimulus. Exactly the same reason we feel pain. And since we evolved from much more primitive creatures, it makes sense. (And heaven help me if the wrong fruitcakes read that tidbit)
You've hit the nail on the head, Wilso. There would be no evolutionary sense in an animal standing in a fire burning to death simply because they were unaware they were burning. Pain makes you (or any animal) run away from things that damage you, simple as that.
It's the same as hunger/thirst, hot/cold. If we never felt hungry, how many people would end up starving because they forgot to eat? Lots.
Portal Star
Quote:It is also said that the reason g-d allows suffering on the earth is to test us, to give us the right to exercise our free will and challenge us. That way, we are responsible for directing our soul to heaven or not.
It is said, who said, is that the they my wife keeps bring up when she wants to win an argument "They said". Is it possible that there is no such thing as a soul? Remember, humans are in reality part of the animal kingdom therefore why should we have soul while the rest of that "kingdom" has none?
Turner_727 wrote:Perhaps it's not that animals feel pain, but how we interpret them feeling pain.
Do you ever watch Animal Planet? I don't, much, but my wife does quite a bit. If I watch one crocodile hunter show a week, well, that's a lot. But let's take Steve and Terry Irwin for example. They truly love and care about the animals they work with. Steve has put a lot of time and energy into educating people about all sorts of animals. Should an animal be in pain, he would certainly have a problem with it, and would tkae measures to make sure the animal was out of pain.
And that's just one person on one show. There's plenty more out there. I catch bits and pieces of Animal Precinct before coming to work, and a lot of poeple on that show care just as much as Steve Irwin does.
So I guess what I'm trying to say is, it's just another hardship for us to endure.
In many ways, yes. like when dogs and cats feel pain. But what about rat-specific parasites? What about the plagues of the bind newts in deep caverns? We don't care about them, it doesn't hurt us when they feel pain, but there are bacteria and viruses and parasites designed specifically to hurt them.
au1929 wrote:Portal Star
Quote:It is also said that the reason g-d allows suffering on the earth is to test us, to give us the right to exercise our free will and challenge us. That way, we are responsible for directing our soul to heaven or not.
It is said, who said, is that the they my wife keeps bring up when she wants to win an argument "They said". Is it possible that there is no such thing as a soul? Remember, humans are in reality part of the animal kingdom therefore why should we have soul while the rest of that "kingdom" has none?
I'm talking about the g-d of the judeo-chrisitan religion/abrahamic faiths. This is an "inside the box" question I have, I would like to know how followers adress this (seemingly difficult) question.
I'm hoping Husker will show up for this one, as he is closely affiliated with this school of thought.
I'm intrigued by the idea of animals not having souls in general. There was a philosopher (I forget his name) who would repeatedly kick his dog to illustrate the point (that he thought they didn't have souls and couldn't feel pain.)
Portal Star
Curious, do the faiths of which you speak claim that animals are without souls? Do they address the subject?
I do not know the specific biblical quotes they cite (can someone help me please?) But I know most abrahamic faiths believe animals have no souls. Especially Catholicism.
Of course animals have souls. Each one is its own unique spirit as well. Consider the white buffalo which comes around every 2,000 years. It is unique, one of a kind, and lives out the same destiny each time.
All life is sacred to the American Indian. Everything has a balance and harmony in nature. There is a major geophysical problem on the planet which creates a lot of devastation and strife in the animal kingdom as well as with humans. When people start going to Heaven, they will take their animals with them.
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
truth
au1929, I would say (although I do not "know" in the scientific, or even intellectual sense) that IF there is an immortal soul, it is a single soul which belongs to all sentient beings. ALL life forms (on this or any other planet in the Cosmos) that experience life share a single soul. But please do not ask for proof of this assertion.
I agree with most on why animals feel pain - it is for basic survival. If being chomped on did not feel painful, an animal may not realize he is being eaten. Pain for animals causes them to run or fight.
Perhaps on the human side, God may also being referring to non-physical pain.
Most hunters say a prayer for the soul of the animal they have just killed. It's all part of being in the wind. The ethical hunter also makes sure the animal feels as little pain as possible, no matter what method they are using. I've always had a problem with non-lethal traps for this reason.
truth
It's obvious that animals both feel pain and die, but it is not obvious that they know they are feeling pain (they don't bitch) or that they will someday die. That's what is known as suffering. Elephants seem to know when a comrade has died. They even seem to grieve for it, but that doesn't mean that they have the abstract notion of death, or that they can reason that they,too, will someday die. That does not seem to be necessary for survival. We would survive without the knowledge of our mortality if we only have the same instinctive drives to flee things bigger than us. But that would only apply, it seems to me, to the condition of our earliest ancestors. Today we need the knowledge of mortality; we need to KNOW that leaking gas, or poorly functioning nuclear reactors can kill us. Gorillas and zebras would not draw such a conclusion from leaking gas or a condition of a reactor. The problem with our knowledge of mortality is that it drives us to profoundly neurotic belief systems designed to neutralize the pain from that knowledge.
I agree with all the comments about animals needing pain to learn about danger, so forth. But also, addressing the original statement, I have never heard a religion that preaches souls, which teaches that animals do not have souls. But I know of plenty that do.
Wilso has very aptly answered the question "Why Do Animals Experience Pain?"
JLNobody has addressed the underlying question "Why Do Animals Suffer?" by suggesting that they do not suffer. They may experience pain, but they do not suffer. Unfortunately, JL seems to equate suffering with an awareness of death. Is that truly a requirement of suffering?
Personally, I believe that animals suffer. They have what can be described as a negative emotional reaction to certain circumstances. If you deprive a dog of the presence of humans, you are depriving him of something that he is genetically programmed to seek. The inability to meet one's purpose must engender suffering. Observe a dog that is kept alone in a room while the rest of the family (pack) is together elsewhere and you will observe suffering.
Now return to the original question which seems to really be asking "If animals don't have souls, why do they suffer?"
If this is the gist of the question, it presumes that suffering is, at least, the price of having a soul. So if animals don't have souls why should they pay the price?
First of all suffering is not the price of having a soul. It is a necessary element of existence. Happiness cannot exist without suffering. There is no light without darkness, there is no life without death.
Secondly, it is insufferably arrogant to believe that souls attach along lines of species. Dithering about self-awareness is just that. No one on earth can say with any certainty what species are self aware and what species are not. At this point it is all conjecture. Having said this, why is self awareness a prerequiste for a soul? To follow that train of thought is to suggest that the soul is the personality. When I die, the personality ceases, but the soul endures.
There is an almost childish sensibilty running through this thread. "How can God make the poor innocent animals suffer?" It's simply a subset of the childish conclusion that God cannot exist if his creations( most often defined as humans) suffer.
If one treasures a notion of a place called Heaven where "Souls" sprout wings and play harps all day, perhaps it's difficult to conceive that animals have souls.
If, on the other hand, one equates the life force existant in all creatures with the concept of soul and existence beyond life, then species limitations are meaningless.
Re: truth
JLNobody wrote:It's obvious that animals both feel pain and die, but it is not obvious that they know they are feeling pain (they don't bitch) or that they will someday die. That's what is known as suffering. Elephants seem to know when a comrade has died. They even seem to grieve for it, but that doesn't mean that they have the abstract notion of death, or that they can reason that they,too, will someday die. That does not seem to be necessary for survival. We would survive without the knowledge of our mortality if we only have the same instinctive drives to flee things bigger than us. But that would only apply, it seems to me, to the condition of our earliest ancestors. Today we need the knowledge of mortality; we need to KNOW that leaking gas, or poorly functioning nuclear reactors can kill us. Gorillas and zebras would not draw such a conclusion from leaking gas or a condition of a reactor. The problem with our knowledge of mortality is that it drives us to profoundly neurotic belief systems designed to neutralize the pain from that knowledge.
As far as I'm concerned, my dog whining is the same feeling as a human kvetching. Also, there are some parasites that being aware of them (pain) doesn't make a difference in their being removed or not. For example, heartworm in dogs and... Parasites living in the flesh of fish. It causes them pain, but they can do nothing to stop it. Why would g-d create these?
There are parasites that feed on things we don't like or care about or eat (ex: spiders, deep ocean squid.) So they are not put there to affect man. So why, if they are not being tested (via souls) would g-d create a pain that cannot be responded to in these animals.
SCoates, what religions say animals have souls? Are there sects of the Abrahamic faiths that believe this?
Re: Why Do Animals Experience Pain? (questioning a viewpoint
Portal Star wrote:If g-d is a kind and omnipotent g-d, why would he create/allow suffering to happen in things without souls?
A kind and omnipotent god would not create/allow needless suffering. Needless suffering exists.
Therefore, God must be sadistic, impotent, or non-existent.
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