Why Do Animals Experience Pain? (questioning a viewpoint)

Wilso wrote:

Pain is nothing more than your brain's way of telling you that what is causing the pain could be harmful. It makes sense that animals feel pain, so that they know to fight or runaway from the pain causing stimulus.

Wilso (and Linkat), The fight or flight instinct is not contingent on feeling pain. Fights are instigated by biological drives, not pain, and many animals will fight to the death no matter how badly injured they are.

The instinct to run from predators is innate. If a rabbit heeded to be bitten before learning to flee, it would not survive its first meeting with a fox.

Pain induces an animal to lick a wound, scratch when bitten by a parasite, and learn the pecking order.

But many kinds of pain serve no purpose since the animal can do nothing to alleviate it and can only suffer in silence.

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JLNobody wrote:

It's obvious that animals both feel pain and die, but it is not obvious that they know they are feeling pain (they don't bitch) or that they will someday die. That's what is known as suffering.

It's obvious to anyone who has ever had to have a beloved pet put down that they do indeed suffer. People will go to great trouble and expense to "put an animal out of its misery," which would be pointless if animals did not suffer. Mammals have a limbic system in their brains which allows them to experience emotions just as we do. Reptiles lack the limbic system and since I have no personal experience with snakes, I do not know whether they suffer.

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Finn d'Abuzz wrote:

First of all suffering is not the price of having a soul. It is a necessary element of existence. Happiness cannot exist without suffering. There is no light without darkness; there is no life without death.

This endlessly-repeated platitude is one of the most obnoxious ideas ever to come out of Christian apologetics. It is simply not true, and anyone who gives it any thought at all should be able to see that.

Yes, you can have light without darkness if there is nothing to cast shadows (as in the early universe), and darkness without light if you are born blind.

Yes, you can have life without death. Some of the original bacteria that existed on earth are still alive today. They have an unbroken chain of existence back to the first cell. Sexual reproduction breaks the chain with each generation, but bacteria reproduce by division and while they may augment their DNA on occasion, the original cell lives on.

Of course you can have happiness without suffering. Babies and children can be perfectly happy without ever experiencing true suffering (temporary unhappiness due to dirty diapers or slight hunger is not suffering!). A person who lives a privileged life may be far happier than one who suffers from illness, starvation, torture, and overwork.

Suffering is not the price of happiness. I have to go to work now but will expound on this point later.

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The fight instinct does pertain to pain. According to Dawkins (a research vet known for studying pain in animals), it is believed that pain evolved because, by being unpleasant, it keeps us away from the larger evolutionary disaster of death. Pain is part of a mechanism for helping us to avoid immediate sources of injury, and also to refrain from repeating actions that have resulted in damage.

An animal in pain will either run or fight to protect itself. That does not mean an animal will not fight for other reasons. A basic example, when I accidentally step on my cat's tail, she will cry out and run (flight instinct). My mom cat's in the same situation will hiss and scratch me (fight instinct).

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Re: Why Do Animals Experience Pain? (questioning a viewpoint

Portal Star wrote:

It is said that animals do not have souls.

It is also said that the reason g-d allows suffering on the earth is to test us, to give us the right to exercise our free will and challenge us. That way, we are responsible for directing our soul to heaven or not.

But if animals don't have souls, why would g-d plague the animals? There are some viruses and bacteria that only affect animals, and not mankind.

If g-d is a kind and omnipotent g-d, why would he create/allow suffering to happen in things without souls?

All living creatures have souls...even the yeast cell! Smile

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Terry wrote:

Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
First of all suffering is not the price of having a soul. It is a necessary element of existence. Happiness cannot exist without suffering. There is no light without darkness; there is no life without death.

This endlessly-repeated platitude is one of the most obnoxious ideas ever to come out of Christian apologetics. It is simply not true, and anyone who gives it any thought at all should be able to see that.

Yes, you can have light without darkness if there is nothing to cast shadows (as in the early universe), and darkness without light if you are born blind.

Yes, you can have life without death. Some of the original bacteria that existed on earth are still alive today. They have an unbroken chain of existence back to the first cell. Sexual reproduction breaks the chain with each generation, but bacteria reproduce by division and while they may augment their DNA on occasion, the original cell lives on.

Of course you can have happiness without suffering. Babies and children can be perfectly happy without ever experiencing true suffering (temporary unhappiness due to dirty diapers or slight hunger is not suffering!). A person who lives a privileged life may be far happier than one who suffers from illness, starvation, torture, and overwork.

Suffering is not the price of happiness. I have to go to work now but will expound on this point later.

Dormant spores have the capability to survive till eternity. Upon germination, however, their life span is immediately determined, until they once again sporulate to another dormant spore. Common to bacteria and fungi.

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Re: Why Do Animals Experience Pain? (questioning a viewpoint

Miller wrote:

Portal Star wrote:
It is said that animals do not have souls.

It is also said that the reason g-d allows suffering on the earth is to test us, to give us the right to exercise our free will and challenge us. That way, we are responsible for directing our soul to heaven or not.

But if animals don't have souls, why would g-d plague the animals? There are some viruses and bacteria that only affect animals, and not mankind.

If g-d is a kind and omnipotent g-d, why would he create/allow suffering to happen in things without souls?

All living creatures have souls...even the yeast cell!

How do we know the yeast cell has a soul?

Also, what religion are you? Because I am not sure if all branches of Christianity believe animals do not have souls.

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Catholics must believe animals have a soul as there is a Saint specifically for animals - Francis of Assisi.

Here is his blessing for pets: "Blessed are you, Lord God, maker of all living creatures. You called forth fish in the sea, birds in the air and animals on the land. You inspired St. Francis to call all of them his brothers and sisters. We ask you to bless this pet. By the power of your love, enable it to live according to your plan. May we always praise you for all your beauty in creation. Blessed are you, Lord our God, in all your creatures! Amen."
As the prayer is offered, the pet is gently sprinkled with holy water.

And for other animal friendly bible quotes see - http://www.americancatholic.org/Messenger/Jul2003/Feature2.asp

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Linkat wrote:

Catholics must believe animals have a soul as there is a Saint specifically for animals - Francis of Assisi.

Here is his blessing for pets: "Blessed are you, Lord God, maker of all living creatures. You called forth fish in the sea, birds in the air and animals on the land. You inspired St. Francis to call all of them his brothers and sisters. We ask you to bless this pet. By the power of your love, enable it to live according to your plan. May we always praise you for all your beauty in creation. Blessed are you, Lord our God, in all your creatures! Amen."
As the prayer is offered, the pet is gently sprinkled with holy water.

And for other animal friendly bible quotes see - http://www.americancatholic.org/Messenger/Jul2003/Feature2.asp

I'm pretty sure Catholics believe animals do not have souls. Incedentally, I've been to the tomb of St. Francis of Asisi in Asisi, Italy. very pretty.

Christians belive animals are there for their use. Also know that many views of saints and traditions in Christianity have nothing to do with the bible.

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Why would Catholics then have a Saint for Animals and a blessing for them if they did not think they had souls?

Read some of the bible references, it sounds like at least according to these sections that Christians should believe animals have souls.

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Wow this is an interesting discussion. Let me work on some thoughts. I recently had an observation that changes some of my thoughts on the spirits of animals.

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I asked my (very catholic) friend, and he said:

"the answer is no [to animals having souls.] The Church teaches that animals do not have any spiritual side to their existence (they exist bodily only).

[Based on:]

2415 The seventh commandment enjoins respect for the integrity of creation. Animals, like plants and inanimate beings, are by nature destined for the common good of past, present, and future humanity.194 Use of the mineral, vegetable, and animal resources of the universe cannot be divorced from respect for moral imperatives. Man's dominion over inanimate and other living beings granted by the Creator is not absolute; it is limited by concern for the quality of life of his neighbor, including generations to come; it requires a religious respect for the integrity of creation.195

2416 Animals are God's creatures. He surrounds them with his providential care. By their mere existence they bless him and give him glory.196 Thus men owe them kindness. We should recall the gentleness with which saints like St. Francis of Assisi or St. Philip Neri treated animals.

2417 God entrusted animals to the stewardship of those whom he created in his own image.197 Hence it is legitimate to use animals for food and clothing. They may be domesticated to help man in his work and leisure. Medical and scientific experimentation on animals is a morally acceptable practice, if it remains within reasonable limits and contributes to caring for or saving human lives.

2418 It is contrary to human dignity to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly. It is likewise unworthy to spend money on them that should as a priority go to the relief of human misery. One can love animals; one should not direct to them the affection due only to persons. "

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Quote:

Noah's ark is a wonderful symbol of God's desire to save the whole family of creation. The story suggests that it is not God's plan to save humankind apart from the other creatures. St. Paul writes to the Romans (8:22), "All creation is groaning" for its liberation. After the waters of the flood go away, God makes a covenant with all living creatures. The covenant is not simply between God and the humans, but also, as the Bible says, with "all the birds, and the various tame and wild animals....Never again shall all bodily creatures be destroyed by the waters of a flood" (Genesis 9:10-11).

Isn't it interesting that God can cause the greatest massacre of all time, not just against those that displeased him, but against all critters great and small..... and this gets interpreted as a wonderful symbol??

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Portal, sorry to take so long to answer your question. Any religion which favors reincarnation into animals obviously believes that animals have souls. Honestly I am not to familiar with such religions. Egyptians believed that animals had souls. As far as anything Abrahamic faiths, yes. I am a member of one. While I don't believe their souls are of the same intelligence or potential as our own.

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truth
Terry, you are right, of course. Animals do suffer pain, and we wish to relieve them of that pain by one means or another. My use of the term,"suffering" was very specific. It referred not to physical pain but to the psychological pain of its anticipation or its meaning, for example, "what does it mean in terms of disease?" or "Poor little me!". I don't think other animals suffer in this way. They just hurt and die; but only we make a problem of it. I could have said "they suffer and die, but only we make a problem of it." But I was reserving the S term for a special meaning.

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truth
By the way, folks, when the Spaniards conquered the "Indians" of the "New" World, they refused for a long time to grant that they possessed souls. It was undoubtedly so that they could treat Indians as animals with theological/moral impunity. That's how I see our refusal to grant souls to animals today.
Of course they don't have souls, but neither do we.

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For those of you that believe in this concept of a soul that goes on into an afterlife.

At what age does this soul begin, newborn, 3 years, puberty?

What happens in the case of senility/dementia when what was recognized as the essence of a person vanishes before death.?

What about mental illness?

What about brain damage due to accident?

And now we are talking about animals with souls? I can see how we become attached to some of the domesticated animals, but surely there must be a bottom limit. Does the flea on the dog also have a soul?

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Re: Why Do Animals Experience Pain? (questioning a viewpoint
Any living thing would be just as likely to have a soul as a human. That philosophy is just some old out dated bible belief that makes people think that one life form is more superior than another. When in reality we're all in it together.

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I believe it does. And in answer to your other questions, I believe the best logical answer (in defense of a soul, that is) would be that it is somewhat subject to the body in which it resides. The soul lived before this life, but cannot remember it, because it is subject to the memories of its physical brain. So even when the brain starts to cripple, the soul will remember in the next life, so the person is not truly lost. Same for physical aspects. If a body loses an arm, the soul is still whole, but it is limited by the armless body until it leaves that body. I assume the soul would be able to see and feel emotions, and our bodies were designed to meet those needs. That theory supports why there is a physical reason why people feel happiness or sadness or any other emotion like spiritual experiences, without discounting such things as actually being based in spirit.

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Why Do Animals Experience Pain? (questioning a viewpoint)

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