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The Gun Fight in Washington. Your opinons?

 
 
Thomas
 
  3  
Reply Wed 23 Jan, 2013 02:57 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:
The constitution 2 amendment did not limit the technology of firearms

Neither did it say that permissible technology is unlimited. In stating that "the" right to hold and bear arms shall not be infringed, the framers of the Second Amendment referred to a well-settled body of English law. (See Scalia's decision in Heller.) This body of law, going back to the English Bill of Rights of 1689, applied to the American colonies until July 3, 1776.The English Bill of Rights, in turn, did provide for gun control by decreeing "[t]hat the subjects which are Protestants may have arms for their defence suitable to their conditions and as allowed by law". (Emphasis added---T.)

Fifteen years later, in 1791, the Second Amendment's "shall not be infringed" language removed the prohibitions on non-Protestants and the restrictions on people so poor that English law didn't deem guns "suitable to their conditions". But the notion that all "arms for their defense" must therefore be "allowed by law" is a historical fabrication by modern American conservatives. From the earliest days of the American colonies, English law restricted the kinds of arms the people could hold and bear. The authors of the Second Amendment neither intended nor understood themselves to be removing these restrictions.
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Wed 23 Jan, 2013 03:04 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
Lustig Andrei wrote:
Anyone who thinks there's a possibility of a ban on all semi-automatic weapons really doesn't understand the situation.

Maybe not, but the issue in this sub-thread is Constitutional possibility, not practical possibility.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Wed 23 Jan, 2013 03:29 pm
@H2O MAN,
Quote:
It's both funny and sad that some still don't understand the difference between a clip and a magazine.


That is minor however you are right it would be nice if such people as parados would have any understanding of firearms.

H2O MAN
 
  2  
Reply Wed 23 Jan, 2013 03:35 pm
@BillRM,


A minor part of a bigger picture... it's part of a pattern of ignorance on many subjects including firearms.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jan, 2013 03:59 pm
@Thomas,
B
Quote:
illRM wrote:
The constitution 2 amendment did not limit the technology of firearms

Neither did it say that permissible technology is unlimited


Funny you quote the first part of a posting of mine but not the rest of it as follow.

Quote:
and there is no overwhelming superiority of semi-auto rifles compare to lever action rifles that date back to the 1860s that would allow anyone to go after semi-auto weapons under the theory of their outstanding deadliness call for a public safety limitation on the 2 amendment.
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Wed 23 Jan, 2013 04:07 pm
@BillRM,
Fair enough, let's assume that what you say is true and outlaw lever-action rifles, too. Are you happy now, as a constitutional matter? And if not, why not? What is your standard?
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Wed 23 Jan, 2013 04:37 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:
Fair enough, let's assume that what you say is true and outlaw lever-action rifles, too. Are you happy now, as a constitutional matter? And if not, why not? What is your standard?


In effect de facto repealing the second amendment by SC actions by them declaring the last hundred and fifty years of firearm technology not being cover by the second amendment?

Going against a hundred and fifty years of past rulings of the court at the same time in that area of law?

Not going to happen as that is not how the SC work.
Lustig Andrei
 
  2  
Reply Wed 23 Jan, 2013 04:40 pm
@BillRM,
Thomas never said -- or implied -- that it was going to happen. Last couple of pages have been strictly on the Constitutional possibilities, not probabilities.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jan, 2013 04:43 pm
What one hundred and fifty years of Court rulings? The only comment by the Court on the specific nature of a firearm before Heller was in The United States versus Miller in 1939, and there the Court stated that it didn't know that a shotgun having a barrel of less than 18" was a weapon of the militia.

You're just making **** up as you go along. That's typical.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Wed 23 Jan, 2013 04:45 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
Quote:
Last couple of pages have been strictly on the Constitutional possibilities, not probabilities.


The probabilities of that happening is as near zero as possible as 5 members of the SC would need to go completely rogue as far as the legal standards that should be apply to SC rulings.
Lustig Andrei
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jan, 2013 04:47 pm
@BillRM,
Right. So what?
roger
 
  2  
Reply Wed 23 Jan, 2013 04:55 pm
@BillRM,
Guess who has another four years of Supreme Court appointments.
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Wed 23 Jan, 2013 04:57 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
Quote:
Right. So what?


So?

Once more talking about a SC ruling that is science fiction hell fantasy is kind of pointless and as likely as having Obama seizing complete power in a coup.

Both are about equally likely or more to the point unlikely under our system.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jan, 2013 05:00 pm
@roger,
roger wrote:

Guess who has another four years of Supreme Court appointments.

I always knew there was a bogeyman that lived under H20Man's bed, but I never suspected it was you roger.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Wed 23 Jan, 2013 05:15 pm
@BillRM,
Or in other words, you have no constitutional standard for balancing public safety with gun rights. I'll quit wasting both our time on this subject.
Lustig Andrei
 
  2  
Reply Wed 23 Jan, 2013 05:37 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

Or in other words, you have no constitutional standard for balancing public safety with gun rights. I'll quit wasting both our time on this subject.


Short of putting him on 'ignore', that is the only way to handle BillRM. He is the one poster on this site who is absolutely incapable of leaving a conversation without getting the last word. Doesn't matter what the word is.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Wed 23 Jan, 2013 10:09 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

Or in other words, you have no constitutional standard for balancing public safety with gun rights.
I'll quit wasting both our time on this subject.
1. Gun control creates un-safe conditions by disarming future victims.

2. Gun control depends for its existence upon the hoax of jurisdiction,
in violation of the Bill of Rights.





David
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Thu 24 Jan, 2013 12:56 am
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:
oralloy wrote:
The matter most under discussion at the moment is a ban on harmless cosmetic features like pistol grips and adjustable stocks.

What would be the public's compelling interest in preventing a rifle from having a pistol grip?


On reflection, it's not about the pistol grip, it's about the weapon being semi-automatic. I just read Wikipedia's summary of the Federal Assault Weapons Ban (1994--2004). It tells me you withheld some key information about the definition of "assault weapons": The ban specifically applied to semi-automatic weapons with the cosmetic features you listed. On guns you re-cock manually, you can have all the cosmetics you want.


The fact that they only ban harmless cosmetic features on "certain weapons" does not change that they are only banning harmless cosmetic features.

And it still does not provide any compelling public interest in banning those harmless cosmetic features.



Thomas wrote:
Hence, it seems that the US government could make your concerns (and BillRM's) go away simply by banning all semi-automatic weapons. Removing the need to reload most certainly increases a shooter's threat to public safety, justifying a government interest in prohibition. So, would a blanket ban on all semi-automatic weapons make you happier constitution-wise? If not, how would a ban on all semi-automatics not be narrowly tailored to uphold public safety?


Focusing on a substantive issue would solve the problem raised by focusing on cosmetic features. But it does not automatically mean there is a compelling reason to ban something.

The only situation where there has been a problem with people pulling the trigger "as fast as they can" on a semi-auto, has been drive-by shootings using handguns.

Banning all handguns that can fire each time the trigger is pulled (presumably also including double-action revolvers) would make handguns useless for self defense, which is pretty draconian considering that we're dealing with a right to carry handguns for self defense.

Limiting the damage done in drive-by shootings could be done by just limiting magazine size alone, which would still allow handguns to have utility in self defense.


Long guns only seem to be a problem in shooting sprees. Here, the speed of a semi-auto is much less useful to the perpetrator. Pump and lever actions are nearly as fast in aimed fire (and more than fast enough to suit the purposes of a spree killer).

And any ban on semi-autos, pumps, and lever actions together, would do away with any long gun useful for self defense.

Just as with the drive-by issue with handguns above, the problem could be solved by just limiting ammo capacity (although in the case of a spree killer, that would only be truly effective if there were also limits on their speed of reload).


So, any ban on handguns that can fire with each trigger pull, would not be narrowly tailored. It would do away with handguns useful for self defense, even though limiting ammo capacity would solve the same problem without doing away with handguns useful for self defense.

Any ban on semi-auto rifles would fail to be justified by a compelling public interest, because it would do nothing to diminish spree killings so long as killers also could get pumps or lever actions.

And any ban on semi-auto, pump, and lever action rifles combined, would not be narrowly tailored, because that would eliminate self defense long guns, while limits on ammo capacity would achieve the same effect without eliminating self defense long guns.


Now, if we had just been talking of a stand-alone limit on magazine size, that would be a lot harder to argue against on a Constitutional basis.

But luckily for me, the Enemy does not care about limiting magazine size. The only thing they really care about is banning pistol grips.

So the Enemy are going to waste every bit of their energy trying to ban pistol grips, even though the NRA will prevent Congress from passing that. And then, when all their energy has been uselessly expended flailing away at the NRA over pistol grips, the Supreme Court will come along and strike down whatever state and local assault weapons bans happen to be in existence.

End result: we're back to normal. (Although if the Enemy is willing to compromise with the NRA, they will be allowed to pass expanded background checks.)
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jan, 2013 01:01 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
BillRM wrote:
The constitution 2 amendment did not limit the technology of firearms and there is no overwhelming superiority of semi-auto rifles compare to lever action rifles that date back to the 1860s that would allow anyone to go after semi-auto weapons under the theory of their outstanding deadliness call for a public safety limitation on the 2 amendment.


You've stated this as if it was a fact, but it's not. I believe - and anyone who has significant experience with firearms would likely agree - that there is indeed an inherent superiority to semi-automatic rifles when compared to lever action rifles.

Cycloptichorn


Unless someone were in a situation where "firing without aiming" was adequate, the advantage would be slight.

If we are talking aimed fire where the shooter needs to acquire the target before pulling the trigger again, pump actions are just as good as a semi-auto.

Lever actions are at a slight disadvantage, because you have to take your finger off the trigger when you work the lever, but they shoot fast enough to be good in a fight.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Thu 24 Jan, 2013 01:02 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
The fact that a couple of lever-action rifles are produced that come close to matching the firing speed of a semi-auto doesn't change the fact that the vast, vast majority of lever- and bolt-action rifles don't come anywhere near the firing speed of a semi-auto. You are using a few outliers as an example of the entire class, which is foolish.

Cycloptichorn


I'm not sure why any lever action would be particularly slow firing.
0 Replies
 
 

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