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The Gun Fight in Washington. Your opinons?

 
 
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Tue 29 Jan, 2013 01:35 pm
@parados,
Quote:
Who other than criminals and mentally delusional people fear the US government and swat teams. I am more likely to be struck by lightning and I don't live in constant fear of that.


Would you care for me to list all the innocent home owners that have a SWAT raid that have the whole family laying on the floor with guns at their heads in the last year?

Quote:
We have the ballot box Bill. It's pretty effective for keeping the extremes out of office.


All kind of game being play to keep the vote from a large percent of citizens see the last election for an example of that tend.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Tue 29 Jan, 2013 01:35 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
Re: parados (Post 5239334)
So you two are of the opinion that the people of the US should and in fact need to live in fear of their government and their swat teams?

Sorry the fact is that armed citizens outnumbers all the police forces of this nation by a hundred to one so the ability of the government to imposed it will by force and terror have limits.

Very very sharp limits as a matter of fact.


QUESTION, Bill:

By your own admission, EVERY card is in your hands...not just the high ones, but all of 'em.

The politicians are too cowardly to propose anything meaningful; SCOTUS would strike down anything that accidentally passed; even if enacted and passed, gun owners who outnumber police 100 to 1 (something even our armed forces do not do) and could stop implementation with no trouble.

So why are you posting about the dangers?

Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jan, 2013 01:37 pm
Oh sure . . . demand a rational attitude . . . that is SO unfair . . .
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Tue 29 Jan, 2013 01:38 pm
@Setanta,
.... and would destroy the humour factor of this thread!
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 29 Jan, 2013 02:44 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Answer: this had been a well funded and media supported attacked on the 2 amendment of no small note and need to be response to as a possible danger to the constitutional freedoms of US citizens.

One of the reasons that this attack is not doing well are the sheer mass of people willing to speak out against this attacked.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Tue 29 Jan, 2013 03:35 pm

Without irrational left wing talking points, this thread would have died long ago.

The lack of common sense on the left is unsettling, but it's understandable considering their sources of information.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Tue 29 Jan, 2013 03:44 pm

What happened to the left's sense of urgency on this issue?
Saving kids lives has taken a back seat to immigration and global warming.


Of course no attention is being paid to the economy, the debt and Obama arming the Muslim brotherhood with tanks, F-16s, etc...
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Tue 29 Jan, 2013 04:46 pm
The American revolution started on April 19, 1775 in response to an attempt by the British regulars to disarm the militia of their stockpiles near Lexington. It became the shot heard ’round the world. The subsequent Constitution and Bill of Rights set up checks and balances, in part as a response to various types of British abuse and interference.
Today, the establishment has openly violated much the Constitution and Bill of Rights, wantonly spied on communications without warrant and staked TSA agents at airports to abuse the traveling public despite the 4th Amendment, and has conducted a long train of abuses. Now it seeks to dismantle the 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear arms, removing yet another important check on government power.
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Tue 29 Jan, 2013 05:09 pm
@H2O MAN,
Quote:
Today, the establishment has openly violated much the Constitution and Bill of Rights, wantonly spied on communications without warrant and staked TSA agents at airports to abuse the traveling public despite the 4th Amendment, and has conducted a long train of abuses. Now it seeks to dismantle the 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear arms, removing yet another important check on government power.




However I do not think that the problems and abuses by the Federal government had reached the point that they can not be limited or even stop within the system.

It is surely worrisome and need to be address.
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Tue 29 Jan, 2013 05:45 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Quote:
Today, the establishment has openly violated much the Constitution and Bill of Rights, wantonly spied on communications without warrant and staked TSA agents at airports to abuse the traveling public despite the 4th Amendment, and has conducted a long train of abuses. Now it seeks to dismantle the 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear arms, removing yet another important check on government power.




However I do not think that the problems and abuses by the Federal government had reached the point that they can not be limited or even stop within the system.

It is surely worrisome and need to be address.


And that's the point.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Reply Tue 29 Jan, 2013 05:57 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:

Would you care for me to list all the innocent home owners that have a SWAT raid that have the whole family laying on the floor with guns at their heads in the last year?

Yes, I would.
Perhaps you can start with just the innocent home owners that were killed in the last year by SWAT.
Then you can list those that were injured by SWAT
Once we get those 2 lists out of the way then we can get to the final list.
parados
 
  2  
Reply Tue 29 Jan, 2013 05:59 pm
@parados,
By the way Bill...

I'll bet that guns in the hands of civilians are a LOT more dangerous to me than guns in the hands of SWAT.
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jan, 2013 06:04 pm
@parados,
I'll bet that guns in the control of civilians are a LOT less dangerous to me than a a gun controlled by PARASITE.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Tue 29 Jan, 2013 06:05 pm
@H2O MAN,
Quote:
Obama arming the Muslim brotherhood with tanks, F-16s, etc...


So Mrs Clinton did achieve something then after all apart from taking four years to discover that the world is a difficult and dangerous place.
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jan, 2013 06:11 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

Quote:
Obama arming the Muslim brotherhood with tanks, F-16s, etc...


So Mrs Clinton did achieve something then after all apart from taking four years to discover that the world is a difficult and dangerous place.


Hillary Clinton did get 4 Americans murdered in Benghazi.
I guess that's an achievement in some peoples eyes, but not mine.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Tue 29 Jan, 2013 06:28 pm
@parados,
Quote:
Yes, I would.
Perhaps you can start with just the innocent home owners that were killed in the last year by SWAT.
Then you can list those that were injured by SWAT
Once we get those 2 lists out of the way then we can get to the final list.


I think off hand that I can give you people that was hurt by being handle roughly by swat and god know the harm done to the children that see their home invaded and their parents having guns to their heads.

Their homes are no longer a safe harbor from the world.

As far as dead plenty of police killing innocent unarmed people but I do not off hand know of a home invasion SWAT deathS I will check.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jan, 2013 06:29 pm
@parados,
Quote:
I'll bet that guns in the hands of civilians are a LOT more dangerous to me than guns in the hands of SWAT.


Wrong when it come to myself and my wife hands.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  3  
Reply Tue 29 Jan, 2013 06:37 pm
@parados,
Quote:
http://articles.latimes.com/2000/nov/01/news/mn-45199


Deaths Raise Questions About SWAT Teams
C


MODESTO — No one disputes that Alberto Sepulveda was doing exactly as he was told in the seconds after a police SWAT team burst into his family's home early on the morning of Sept. 13.

As officers rounded up his father, mother and brother, the 11-year-old quickly complied with orders to lie face down, arms outstretched, on the floor beside his bed.



Less than 30 seconds later, in what police describe as a tragic accident, he was struck in the back and killed by a blast from a shotgun trained on him by a Modesto special weapons and tactics officer.

The boy's death, while his father was being served with a federal arrest warrant in a drug trafficking case, sent shock waves through this Central Valley city, roiling its large, established Latino community and throwing its Police Department--and its new police chief--on the defensive.

Under investigation by the state attorney general, the Stanislaus County district attorney and the Police Department itself, the case has raised numerous questions, from why agents chose to arrest Moises Sepulveda at his home to why pre-raid surveillance had not discovered that children were likely to be present.

For many, though, the issue is a broader one: Why was the SWAT team there at all?

"Why all these paramilitary tactics, this whole ninja way of breaking into somebody's home to serve a warrant?" asked Michael Garcia, a leader of the Modesto chapter of the American GI Forum, a Latino veterans group that has been outspoken in the case. "It's like a police state--not something I ever thought I'd see in my country."

Academics such as Peter Kraska, a criminologist who has studied the growing use of SWAT teams in cities across the country, echo Garcia's concern.

The fatal raid, Kraska said, highlights a troubling trend--the tendency of law enforcement agencies to rely on paramilitary police units to execute warrants in drug cases. Such an approach is risky and often unnecessary, he said.

He and others cite a string of controversial incidents involving the military-style squads:

* The fatal shooting in September 1999 of Denver resident Ismael Mena, 45, by SWAT team members who forced their way into what turned out to be the wrong house.

* The 1996 death of Larry Harper, an Albuquerque resident who was despondent and threatening to kill himself as SWAT officers, summoned by his family, arrived and shot him to death. The city's SWAT team was dismantled after his shooting.

* The 1997 death in tiny Dinuba, Calif., of Ramon Gallardo, a 64-year-old farm worker, after SWAT officers burst into his home looking for a stolen gun and shot him. A federal jury awarded Gallardo's family $12.5 million--later reduced to $6 million--in one of the largest judgments in a police brutality case.

* And in Southern California, the 1999 death of Compton resident Mario Paz, who was shot in the back during a nighttime raid by SWAT officers from El Monte. Police suspected that his Compton house had been used by a drug suspect, but they later acknowledged they had no evidence that Paz or his family was involved in trafficking.


The Modesto incident seems all the more confounding because police say the fatal shot was unintentional.

Immediately after the shotgun discharged, Officer David Hawn exclaimed that his finger was not on the trigger, police said. Modesto Police Chief Roy Wasden has speculated that the trigger may have caught on Hawn's clothing, flashlight or other equipment.

But whether the shooting was accidental, a mistake or anything else is not the issue, Kraska argues. "Obviously, I don't think this officer went in and purposely executed an 11-year-old," he said. "But if the SWAT team is there, tragic accidents like this are much more likely to happen."

Law enforcement officials and many Modesto residents say the real villain in the death is the Central Valley's escalating methamphetamine problem, which they argue has made SWAT actions a necessity.

Stanislaus County Sheriff's Lt. Raul DeLeon, commander of a multi-agency task force set up to combat the drug scourge, describes the Central Valley as "the methamphetamine capital of the world," the primary manufacturing and distribution center for the drug.

SWAT officers' powerful automatic weapons, special equipment and tactical expertise are a critical component in the fight against the drug and its dealers, he said.

No drugs or weapons were discovered in the Sepulveda home, although authorities did find $3,000 in cash. Moises Sepulveda was charged with conspiracy to distribute methamphetamines and released on a $50,000 property bond, secured against his home and that of his sister.

Sepulveda has denied guilt--and hired attorneys to represent him in his criminal case and in a civil lawsuit he expects to file over the death of his son. He has retained Arturo Gonzalez, the San Francisco attorney who won the Dinuba case.
BillRM
 
  3  
Reply Tue 29 Jan, 2013 06:40 pm
@parados,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-knock_warrant


Examples

Kathryn Johnston (c1914-2006) was an elderly Atlanta, Georgia woman shot by three undercover police officers in her home on November 21, 2006 after she fired one shot at the ceiling, assuming her home was being invaded. While the officers were wounded by friendly fire, none of the officers received life threatening injuries, but Johnston was killed by their gunfire.[1]
Two former Los Angeles Police Department officers, along with 13 others, have plead guilty to running a robbery ring, which used fake no-knock raids as a ruse to catch victims off guard. The defendants would then steal cash and drugs to sell on the street. This tactic led Radley Balko, editor of Reason Magazine, to complain "So not only can you not be sure the people banging down your door at night are the police, not only can you not be sure they’re the police even if they say they’re the police, you can’t even be sure it’s safe to let them in even if they are the police."[3][4][5]
Tracy Ingle was shot in his house five times during a no-knock raid in North Little Rock, Arkansas. After the police entered the house Tracy thought armed robbers had entered the house and intended to scare them away with a non-working gun. The police expected to find drugs, but none were found. He was brought to the intensive care, but police pulled him out of intensive care for questioning, after which they arrested him and charged him with assault on the officers who shot him.[6][7]
Ismael Mena, a Mexican immigrant, was shot and killed by SWAT team officers in Denver, Colorado who were performing a no-knock raid that was approved by a judge acting on false information contained in a search warrant. The police believed there to be drugs in the house, but no drugs were found on the premises, and it was later revealed that the address given to the SWAT team by officer Joseph Bini was the wrong one. Jefferson County District Attorney Dave Thomas investigated the matter and cleared the officers involved with the raid on the grounds that Mena had pointed a gun and fired it at SWAT officers, although who fired first remains unknown. However, many have objected to the investigation's findings due to inconsistencies in the various officers' account of what happened. The American Civil Liberties Union, and others, have objected to the Denver Police Department's request for a no-knock raid and the Judge's decision to allow such a raid on the grounds that they failed to meet the criteria necessary for a no-knock raid.[8]
US Marine Jose Guerena was shot twenty-two times by a SWAT team planning to execute a search warrant. He retrieved a legally possessed rifle in response to sudden intruders, likely concerned for his family's safety, and the SWAT team opened fire on him before establishing any communication. The team later retracted its initial claims he had opened fire when it was established that Guerena had never fired and his safety was still on. The police refused to allow paramedics to access Guerena for more than hour, leaving Guerena to bleed to death, alone, in his own home. Members of the SWAT team subsequently hired legal defense and a large following of fellow Marines held a memorial service at his home with his widow.
[edit]See also
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jan, 2013 07:15 pm
@BillRM,
Rule of law country, right?
0 Replies
 
 

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