Your take on Zen

@JLNobody,

Why do people ideate is a much harder question than why people communicate, for me. What is the use of thought, is it just an evoluntionary tool or a gift bestowed by a creator God in order to worship him, for there must be a purpose for thought is so fragmentary compared to insight(which is truth i.e either something is true or it is not), is it an vestigeal apparatus that we need to dismantle and throw away?

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I'm deeply interested in zen, of the qualities of suchness and emptiness, however I have deeply held beliefs on a single omnipotent God, where we are emanations that render the quality of love in every form, as compassion, beauty and truth. I hope this contradiction in my learning doesn't become a rift, rather a synthesis and I am really looking forward to see how this thread develops as an aid. So thank you.

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@JLNobody,

I'm just gonna quote a whole bunch for you, I found it helpful Smile

The master said to me: ‘All the Buddhas and all the sentient beings are nothing but the One Mind beside which nothing exists.
This mind, which is without beginning, is unborn and indestructible. It is not green nor yellow, is unborn and has neither form nor appearance.
It does not belong to the categories of things which exist or do not exist, nor can it be thought of as new or old. It is neither long nor short, big nor small, for it transcends all limits, measures, names, traces and comparisons. It is that which you see before you – begin to reason about it and you at once fall into error.
It is like the boundless void which cannot be fathomed or measured.’

The One Mind alone is the Buddha and there is no distinction between the Buddha and all sentient things, but the sentient beings are attached to forms and so seek externally for Buddhahood. By their very seeking, they lose it for that is seeking the Buddha to seek for the Buddha and using mind to grasp mind.

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@dalehileman,

Pantheism is out for me, for I believe in a transcendental omnipotent creator God. I agree that zen is definitely existentialist. I have to reconcile monotheism with zen, I can only say that God allows himself to be rendered to us by the quality of suchness, this insight which comes to us is external, it is what is tradionally known as The Truth, intelligence as opposed to thought is truth acting on reality. And let me repeat, its source is external.

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@dalehileman,

This is a quoatation from William Wray's collection of Zen Sayings and and clearly puts aside materialism. Whether materialism is a quintessential part of existentialism is something I would like to know more about for I feel many have lost the way muddling between the two. If you can enlighten me on how materialism diverges or is part of existentialism I will very grateful, thanks.

"The pure mind, the source of everything, shines forever and on all with the brilliance of its own perfection. But the people of the world do not awaken to it, regarding only that which one sees, hears, feels and knows as mind. Blinded by their own sight, hearing, feeling, knowing, they do not perceive the spiritual brilliance of the source-substance."

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@Qaf,

Qaf wrote:

Pantheism is out for me, for I believe in a transcendental omnipotent creator God. I agree that zen is definitely existentialist. I have to reconcile monotheism with zen, I can only say that God allows himself to be rendered to us by the quality of suchness, this insight which comes to us is external, it is what is tradionally known as The Truth, intelligence as opposed to thought is truth acting on reality. And let me repeat, its source is external.

Alan Watts tried for thirty years to reconsile a monotheistic god with Zen. He lectured on it at length. Many of his talks can be found on youtube. Ultimately Zen won the battle. The source mind has no characteristics. It has no intentions. It does not create nor does it have motivation to create. It can not be calledva god.

The minds of sentient beings give rise to their own delusiion for not seeing with right mind. There is no need for a creator. If there was a creator then it would be responsible for the suffering of samsara.

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@Qaf,

Quote:

how materialism diverges or is part of existentialism

Qaf sorry; hve book on the subj, read it twice, still in the dark. Best I can do, exis =skeptical

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Now and zen
Zere's a fool such az I

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@edgarblythe,

Quote:

such az I

Ed join the club

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@Krumple,

Krumple wrote :

Quote:

The minds of sentient beings give rise to their own delusiion for not seeing with right mind. There is no need for a creator. If there was a creator then it would be responsible for the suffering of samsara.

Samsara is the attachment to the material plain. Our Karmic actions stem from and give rise to attachments that may or may not lead to suffering. Our Karma is what causes our cyclic existence, this excludes any action by the creator God, therefore you cannot rule out this God on the basis of chaining to samsara. There are plenty of people who have attained bliss and are devoid of karmic repurcussion, attachment to Samsara is a wholly human pre-occupation, where the creator God, a cosmological constant is The creator and the observer.

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@dalehileman,

Dalehillemen

How do you differentiate between thought, insight, truth and intelligence. In zen I think we are supposed to use a few as a process in dismantaling the edifice of thought and taking away its power of attachment. In a purifying process are we to discard intelligence, insight and truth (all of which I dissassociate from thought) as well?

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@Qaf,

Qaf wish could help but it's all too deep for your Average Clod (me)

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@Qaf,

Qaf wrote:

Krumple wrote :
Quote:
The minds of sentient beings give rise to their own delusiion for not seeing with right mind. There is no need for a creator. If there was a creator then it would be responsible for the suffering of samsara.

Samsara is the attachment to the material plain. Our Karmic actions stem from and give rise to attachments that may or may not lead to suffering. Our Karma is what causes our cyclic existence, this excludes any action by the creator God, therefore you cannot rule out this God on the basis of chaining to samsara. There are plenty of people who have attained bliss and are devoid of karmic repurcussion, attachment to Samsara is a wholly human pre-occupation, where the creator God, a cosmological constant is The creator and the observer.

I understand all that. I am asking, why call it the creator? What did it create? If it created a mind that was seperate from itself then it is responsible for that mind.

If it created samsara as a potential for a mind to manifest in ignorance then it is also responsible.

Why call it a creator? What did it create?

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@Krumple,

Krumple wrote:

Quote:

Why call it a creator? What did it create?

Surah Qaf, verse 6-8
Have the Non-believers not looked up at the sky overhead
And seen how seamlessly and beautifully We made it.
And have they not observed
How We spread out the earth
With its mountains and diverse terrain
And how We caused numerous beautiful and useful plants
In pairs to grow there?
All are provided for the use of God’s humble servants
To give everyone a reason
For contemplation and remberance

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@dalehileman,

Oops I hope I'm not trolling over such a good thread, one more post and I shall desist. A plurality of voices (very non zen saying haha) is so much better.

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@Krumple,

@ Krumple

For me, the dilemma is what is the nature of evil. If extant evil persist then I see it as being caused by the weight of karmic debt. If I don't believe in karma I say my creator God wants me to understand the nature of this evil and that I may find solace by following God's edicts as layed down by a revealed text. Now we come to the question, the important question of how does Zen tackle evil, of man upon man, of nation upon nation. The answer is you cannot think it away, you can only aspire towards the Great Emptiness that removes suffering and brings you close to the suchness of things, this suchness is the creation of God.

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@dalehileman,

Pantheism assumes that we are a collective emanation and emanation precludes the notion of time.
This is against the tenets of Zen and non duality, where suchness, that which is, the ever-present boundless now, is always atemporal

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@Qaf,

It is but natural to think of the definition of a creator God, who creates through instantaneous cause and effect to be similar to that which we seek in non duality i.e a state of unicity.

Joan Tollifson - “Now points to an immediacy that does not come and go, a presence that is equally present in (and as) all experience, the seeing that can never see itself,
the being here that is impossible to deny.”

Many people consider the universe and people therein as existing as holograms of an ideal hologram, this is a view of existence as statis. This ideal hologram, the ever present now, suchness, tattaghata, is but another name for sensing God’s plan. The closer you intuit the literality of God’s word, the closer you are to suchness, which is his bounty.. In monotheism, this is the purpose of existence, i.e we have been given the luxury of free will in order to worship God, period. This btw is an answer to the duality that rises from asking whether the universe is deterministic and what place does free will have in it.

You know when you've begun answering your own posts you are in twouble Laughing

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@Qaf,

Quote:

Oops I hope I'm not trolling over such a good thread,

Not at all Qaf, your contributions are appreciated

Quote:

one more post and I shall desist.

Don't

Quote:

Pantheism ... collective emanation...precludes...time..... against Zen and non duality, where suchness, ...boundless now...atemporal

So you send me off to the dictionary

Quote:

√ you are in twouble

Indoody dee

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@Qaf,

Qaf wrote:

Krumple wrote:
Quote:
Why call it a creator? What did it create?

Surah Qaf, verse 6-8
Have the Non-believers not looked up at the sky overhead
And seen how seamlessly and beautifully We made it.
And have they not observed
How We spread out the earth
With its mountains and diverse terrain
And how We caused numerous beautiful and useful plants
In pairs to grow there?
All are provided for the use of God’s humble servants
To give everyone a reason
For contemplation and remberance

Why would you post a quote from an inferrior source. The Quran hasnt given rise to the enlightened mind.

1 Reply

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