Finding a religion or God?

iceman71 wrote:

i wonder where god resides?
maybe prison ,everyone seems to find him there!

Romans 1:20 (Amplified Bible)

For ever since the creation of the world His
invisible nature and attributes, that is, His
eternal power and divinity, have been made
intelligible and clearly discernible in and
through the things that have been made (His
handiworks). So [men] are without excuse
[altogether without any defense or justification]

In plain English, open your eyes and look all
around you.

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iceman71 wrote:

i wonder where god resides?
maybe prison ,everyone seems to find him there!

This may also have something to do with why you
wonder where God resides??? You judge.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (Amplified Bible)

But the natural, nonspiritual man does not
accept or welcome or admit into his heart the
gifts and teachings and revelations of the
Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless
nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of
knowing them [of progressively recognizing,
understanding, and becoming better acquainted
with them] because they are spiritually discerned
and estimated and appreciated.

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if there is a god,i just wondered why he hasnt shown himself.i dont wish to be seen to be making light of other peoples religious views its just in my opinion there has been no or little evidence of a god existing.
i believe in the big bang theory,i dont go for adam and eve.everyone are entitled to their own views/opinions.i also believe that when we die ,our bodies rot and that is the end of it.i would hope that is not the case but my opinion is also shared by stephen hawking who i think is one of the worlds most intelligent men.
i think the bible does offer comfort and meaning to people and in that respect can help people.my view on finding god in prison is that people turn to religion to get themselves out of a predicament or to give them hope in times of need.
it was just a joke which offered a bit of light relief in what is a very serious subject.
sorry if it offended anyone.
i believe life is out there to enjoy and we shouldnt be too overconcerned with things we have no proof over as time passes every one by.perhaps we should spend more time concentrating on real issues in life than using our valuable time worshipping a non entity.

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iceman71 wrote:

if there is a god,i just wondered why he hasnt shown himself.i dont wish to be seen to be making light of other peoples religious views its just in my opinion there has been no or little evidence of a god existing.
i believe in the big bang theory,i dont go for adam and eve.everyone are entitled to their own views/opinions.i also believe that when we die ,our bodies rot and that is the end of it.i would hope that is not the case but my opinion is also shared by stephen hawking who i think is one of the worlds most intelligent men.
i think the bible does offer comfort and meaning to people and in that respect can help people.my view on finding god in prison is that people turn to religion to get themselves out of a predicament or to give them hope in times of need.
it was just a joke which offered a bit of light relief in what is a very serious subject.
sorry if it offended anyone.
i believe life is out there to enjoy and we shouldnt be too overconcerned with things we have no proof over as time passes every one by.perhaps we should spend more time concentrating on real issues in life than using our valuable time worshipping a non entity.

Thanks for your thoughts. No offense taken by me at all.
I will get back to you as soon as I get some things done and
have a moment. I'm not selling, but I would very much like
to ask you check this out. Not to just skim over it, but actually
take a little time to think about what it is saying.

http://www.probe.org/docs/howiknow.html

Z

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Why continue to buy into the Abrahamic definition of God? Those folks define God as male, outside of a finite time/space construct. That sort of God know all and has a Grand Plan for all of creation. Though the Abrahamic types typically deny it, their definition of God pretty much is the antithesis of Free Will. The God of their definition meddles with the laws of physics and mathematics from time to time, and that implies divine chaos in a system where magic prevails over rationality. No one can be blamed for doubting, or rejecting that notion of God. The amazing thing is so many don't seem to have any problem with accepting a definition so at odds with what we think we know about how the universe actually works.

Try this definition of God, and see if you don't find it much more worthy of belief. God is that infinite underlying reality that is the foundation of the observed universe. Without form, or limits of any kind, God is always present in all things. God did not create the universe, nor will God end it, for God and the universe are infinite and unbounded. God doesn't meddle with the universe, because he is the universe and the universe in it's totality is God. The laws of God, mathematics and physics are the same, though our understanding and appreciation of the Law is faulty. Cause and effect operate throughout the universe, and statistical probabilities can be calculated, but specific predictions localized to a single set of coordinates can never be 100%. The sun will rise in the American Southwest at a particular time, but whether I'll wake up at that moment is not predictable. Magic (the transcendance of physical and mathematical law) doesn't exist outside the imagination of sentient beings. God doesn't take sides, because God is all sides. There is either no devine plan, or it is not knowable from observation by scientific means.

In this definition, we are all part of God along with the highest mountains, and the deepest seas. We are no more, nor less, a part of God than a garden snail, or a creature living beneath a sheet of ice on a planet orbiting a star several galaxies away. We are God, and God is sum total of all the stars and atomic elements that have ever existed. Nothing can be apart from God, nor outside the infinite universe. A great deal of the suffering we and other sentient beings experience is caused by our false perception that we are unique and separate from the universe/God.

And if that doesn't light your fire, why not some other definition of God different from either this one, or the little bully that the Abrahamic religions worship and use to justify their prejudices?

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Zeegreat,

Alright, I read your citation. I saw nothing in it that hasn't been asserted frequently over the last thousand years, and it is no more persuasive now than when I first encountered these arguments as a child.

Actually, scientists are still divided over whether the universe is finite, or infinite. The Big Bang was not necessarily the finite point where time and space were created. It may have been, as I and many others believe, only an incident in an infinite series. An infinite universe has no need for a creator, and the existence of physical and mathematical laws do not presuppose a guiding intellect. Events at the quantum level are more often than not counterintuitive. D-Branes are only one of several possibilities advanced by quantum theorists working within the cosmological field today. To suppose a finite universe contains more difficult problems than it resolves, and fails the Occam's Razor test.

To claim that the Bible is without contradiction or error is mind-boggling. There are so many contradictions and assertions that clearly fly in the face of physical law and probability that one can hardly begin to list them all. There are certainly some places and events that have historicity, but there is virtually no objective evidence for Abraham, Moses, or Jesus as individuals, much less for the accuracy of the bibical reports of them and their teachings. There is no evidence that the sun stood still and the walls of Jerico crumbled at the sound of a horn. There is no evidence for the resurrection of Jesus beyond the claims of bibical writers many years after the "event". All assertions of magic per se contradict a world of order based upon physical laws. The whole notion of prophesy, if true, contradicts the idea that people have Free Will.

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Asherman wrote:

Zeegreat,

Alright, I read your citation. I saw nothing in it that hasn't been asserted frequently over the last thousand years, and it is no more persuasive now than when I first encountered these arguments as a child.

Actually, scientists are still divided over whether the universe is finite, or infinite. The Big Bang was not necessarily the finite point where time and space were created. It may have been, as I and many others believe, only an incident in an infinite series. An infinite universe has no need for a creator, and the existence of physical and mathematical laws do not presuppose a guiding intellect. Events at the quantum level are more often than not counterintuitive. D-Branes are only one of several possibilities advanced by quantum theorists working within the cosmological field today. To suppose a finite universe contains more difficult problems than it resolves, and fails the Occam's Razor test.

To claim that the Bible is without contradiction or error is mind-boggling. There are so many contradictions and assertions that clearly fly in the face of physical law and probability that one can hardly begin to list them all. There are certainly some places and events that have historicity, but there is virtually no objective evidence for Abraham, Moses, or Jesus as individuals, much less for the accuracy of the bibical reports of them and their teachings. There is no evidence that the sun stood still and the walls of Jerico crumbled at the sound of a horn. There is no evidence for the resurrection of Jesus beyond the claims of bibical writers many years after the "event". All assertions of magic per se contradict a world of order based upon physical laws. The whole notion of prophesy, if true, contradicts the idea that people have Free Will.

I am truly sorry that you have not met Christ personally and have
the only proof you are ever going to get of His resurrection. He
has to be experienced on the spiritual level and cannot be discerned
intellectually.

You are a brilliant man. To your own detriment. I am afraid.

1 Corinthians 3:18 (Amplified Bible)

Let no person deceive himself.
If anyone among you supposes
that he is wise in this age, let
him become a fool [let him
discard his worldly discernment
and recognize himself as dull,
stupid and foolish, without true
learning and scholarship], that
he may become [really] wise.

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Prevail? Or you proposing and end to this 'confict'?
In my humble opinion, neither exist. There is good, nor bad. But ethics is a tricky question. Perhaps it would be easier to simply state that at no point in history there will be only evil, or only good.
And please stop using caps lock ;-)

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Thank you Asherman, as usual, you have said it all.

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Actually Asherman's definition/explanation for God is not that different from my Christian/Abrahamic definition/explanation of God except for a few variances that form my particular faith. The God of my faith is a more personal God and more involved than that described by Asherman, but I like very much the metaphor of God being all that is. But for those with a more liberal view (liberal being flexible in this case), I would likely be considered fundamentalist. To fundamentalists I am often described as ultra liberal, even heretical. Smile

I much appreciated Asherman's observation that those going through intensely difficult ordeals benefit from having a faith in something larger than themselves. I would add that so do all children benefit from having a faith in something larger than their immediate experience.

I can't imagine how life can have meaning if one believes it ends with the last human breath; at the same time I listen to those who say they think their athiesm brings them more happiness than does my Christianity and, without their experience, how can I say they are wrong? Of course we then have the difficulty of defining happiness.

The number one mistake I think most Christians and some others who hold other religious beliefs make is in not recognizing that all faiths have at least some kernal of truth and not recognizing that God does not recuse Himself from concern for non-Christians (or whatever).

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Foxfyre.

Quote "I much appreciated Asherman's observation that those going through intensely difficult ordeals benefit from having a faith in something larger than themselves. I would add that so do all children benefit from having a faith in something larger than their immediate experience" unquote.
The first part of your quote is quite true. The second part sounds suspicional like a add for your religion. I assure you children need religion like they need two heads. religion should not be "taught" till they are of a age to understand what it means... like 21 year olds.

quote.. " can't imagine how life can have meaning if one believes it ends with the last human breath; at the same time I listen to those who say they think their atheism brings them more happiness than does my Christianity and, without their experience, how can I say they are wrong? Of course we then have the difficulty of defining happiness" unquote.

You really should try to imagine how life has meaning without your God, because when your dead it will be to late.

Since when do atheists think they have more "happiness? I can assure you most human beings know how to define "happiness" seems to me you are the one that has that difficulty.
It matters not how,what, why,or when....

tut tvam asi.. It is ancient sanscrip, from the Chandogya Upanishad, which says "You are it" or "thou art that". The divinity which you seek outside, and which you first become aware of because you recognize it outside, is actually your innermost being.
May your outside-inside-outside God, go with you.

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In the continuation of Zen, which does not know words, I'll keep it short:

I believe in God, I just spell him: N-A-T-U-R-E.

I like this quote, some say nature are the clothes of god. I'll just keep it short and let you interpret it anyway you want to, as it should be. We all have the innate wisdom(=>meditation). I'm confident Asherman is with me on this :p

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