Finding a religion or God?

Well, thanks for being clear (indicating that what I said about the sabbath being the seventh day was in fact biblically correct). And, thankfully we agreed that Jesus is wonderful. I am also content to end this particular conversation. I see no reason for you to attempt to brand me so uncharitably as a "legalist" when what was said was biblically correct. I can only imagine what treatment I would have received had I been biblically incorrect!

In any case, shabbat shalom.

I apologize for prehaps coming across as branding you a total "legalist",
when I have no reason to know that you are. Most Christians that are
legalist about Jewish Law tend to pick what is comfortable with them. A
sort of cafeteria plan of picking a choosing what Old Testament doctrines
they are going to embrace. Usually because of the traditition and
doctrines of their church that they were raised in. The usual," You have
to jump through this hoop this way and that hoop over there another
way or you are going straingh to hell, etc."

I guess I'm just an old warhorse that has seen to many battles over that kind of thing and tend to keep my pencil a little to sharp at times. I see churches split and people hurt over such no matters. Denominations have a tendency to complicate the freedom we have in Christ with a lot of robotic observances that are just not from the heart. Rote prayer and praying to precious dead people that are not God, etc. Just doctrines that started so long ago it can't even be explained sometimes. Things that are tolally void of Bibical basis by the New or Old Testaments. Even do things
that the Bible is very clear about not doing. If it is something taken from the Bible it is most often something taken out of context from one verse or two verses somewhere. When you go past you need to do observances outside of Communion and Water Baptism things start to get on shaky ground most of the time. Jesus wanted us to keep it simple and I will follow His lead. It amazes me why some churches are more concerned
about outside richuals being proper than what is going on with us on the
inside. It is just human nature to complicate what Jesus paid such a price
to make simple.

God had to work from the outside in in the Old Testament. Even the four
Gospels actually fit better as the last four books of the Old Testament. I
wouldn't argue over it , belabor the point or even think it should be changed. It is to trivial to do so. Now starting with the book of Acts God
is able to work from the inside out, because the Holy Spirit could dwell in
us instead of being a mantle on us as God chose. Nobody could have
the agape God kind of love. Not even the disciples. Jesus made that
point when he kept asking Peter over and over if he loved Him.

I have no idea why I chose to rattle on above except to explain why I
can sometimes come on to strong. I like our church approach of letting
people hear the uncomprising Word of God and letting God do His job
of cleaning them up and moulding them in His freedom. "Now the Lord
is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty."
2 Corinthian 3:17 (NAS) It is amazing to watch God blossum in people in that kind of atmosphere.

Shalom to you to my brother.

anton bonnier: I am not a Christian so you may rightly choose to ignore everything I say.

You sound like a young man who is confused about your spirituality, and you should be at your age. All I say is don't attatch yourself to a belief. Search for the understanding that can't be told. Don't settle for second-hand religion.

I highly recommend reading this book by Joseph Campbell the mythologist: "The Power of Myth."
Also J. Krishnamurti, a down-to-Earth mystic has his dialogues published. Lastly, check out some books by Alan Watts. None of these books will give you answers, and they will confuse you, but they are guidelines that may aid you in your search.

True religious people won't give you answers; they'll give you questions, and the rest is up to you.

There are also types of meditations that may help you, though this is out of my field. Try looking in the religion and philosophy categories on A2K. There is a man called JLNobody active in these categories who has practiced Buddhist meditation all his life.

2 Timothy 3:6-7 (Amplified Bible)

(Refers to a particular group, but is all inclusive in concept.)

6 For among them are those who worm their way into homes and captivate
silly and weak-natured and spiritually dwarfed women, loaded down with
[with the burden of their] sins [swayed and led away by various evil desires and seductive impluses].
7 [These weak women will listen to anybody who will teach them]; they are
forever inquiring and getting information, but are never able to arrive at
a recognition and knowledge of the Truth.

SORRY TO BE NEGATIVE BUT RELIGION CAUSES THE PROBLEMS IN THIS WORLD IT SHOULD BE BANNED

There are some things that can no more be "banned" than the law of gravity. Trying to ban religion, war, prejudice, is futile. These are human characteristics, a part of us long before we discovered the benefits of fire. Men are not angels, and to make that misjudgement has historically been the source of great mischief.

We should ponder if it is even possible to eliminate suffering by "perfecting" human nature, even if that were possible. Would we be human-beings if we never made a mistake, or always chose the words and behavior that resulted only in greater happiness for all of creation? This would require that we know the results of all our thoughts, words and actions. Good intentions often get seriously off-track. To "perfect" the species we would have to lose our need for "more" and "better". Resources are finite, yet as a population unchecked by war, murder and even accident increased, the portion available for each individual decreases. Imagine anyone never resenting the reduction of their share of resources. The desire to improve grows from our dis-satisfaction with the existing order of things. Our dissatisfaction is manifest in competition, in territoriality, in war and chauvinism, as well as in invention.

Why do we cooperate? Because its the "right thing to do", or is it because we realize that personal and group efforts to win the competition for resources (wealth, national sovereignty, etc.) require it? Of course, we are herd animals and our herd instincts themselves are the cause for a lot of suffering. Remember the fear and angst of peer pressure in the school yard, the pain of being an nerdish outcast?

To live in this world, we have to have a realistic appreciation for the nature of things. People are able to justify to themselves thoughts, words and actions that clearly are going to increase the overall degree and extent of suffering. We, as a species, are far more driven by our emotions than our rational thoughts. Anger, jealous, and greed motivate people at least as much as patience, charity, and selflessness. Cowardice is as common as heroism, perhaps even more common. We react to our fears, and expect our hopes to be frustrated. We always hunger for more, for better. People LIKE pornography and violence, but their shame drives them into secrecy and denial. It is almost a cliche that the homophobe is suppressing their own homosexual leanings. Human beings have a lot of warts, and faults that lead to their own suffering and the suffering of others. If we ever want to make things better, to reduce suffering and it's causes, we have to see ourselves as we really are.

Rather than try to change the world into a better place, whatever that means if not to reduce the overall amount of suffering attendant upon existing, we should instead focus upon improving our selves. Are you driven by your emotions? Then keep them in check and try to be more rational. Are your appetites always greater than what you have? Then curb your appetites, and learn to be content with the "lesser" portion you already have. Afraid? Then cultivate courage. Dependant upon your peer group for your identity? Stand apart, and look at them from an outsider's perspective. Indulge in random acts of kindness and generosity. Wait to be asked, and then don't over indulge.

Pay attention.

IN MY HUMBLE OPINION TO BELIEVE IN A "GOD" IS NO MORE OF A FANTASY THAN BELIEVING IN FAIRIES LIVING AT THE BOTTOM OF YOUR GARDEN.
RELIGION IS FOR THE WEAK WHO NEED SUPPORT IN TIMES OF THEIR OWN SELF PITY.IF PEOPLE WISH TO BELIEVE IN A GOD OR WORSHIP A TREE THEN THAT IS ALL WELL AND GOOD.BUT TO TRY AND EXERCISE YOUR OWN OPINION OVER NAIVE WEAK PEOPLE IS A FORM OF BRAINWASHING.
I DONT KNOW WHAT FORM OF PROMOTION RELIGION IS GIVEN IN AMERICA,BUT OVER IN ENGLAND WE GET PEOPLE TRYING TO SELL RELIGION AT THE DOORSTEP.
THIS IS WRONG AND SHOULD BE OUTLAWED,THE FEEBLE MINDED ARE TAKEN IN BY THIS CLAPTRAP AND RELY UPON A NON ENTITY TO SORT OUT THEIR SOCIAL PROBLEMS,WHICH WE ALL KNOW DOESNT HAPPEN.
TO GET ANYWHERE IN LIFE YOU HAVE TO BE THE MASTER OF YOUR OWN DESTINY,AND SOON AS PEOPLE WAKE UP TO THE TRUTH THE SOONER THE WORLD COULD BECOME MORE OF A CIVILISED PLACE TO LIVE.
TO ALL THE RELIGIOUS PEOPLE IN AMERICA,WHERE WAS GOD ON THE 11TH OF SEPTEMBER.HE WAS IN THE MINDS OF THE EVIL AL QUAEDA NUTCASES WHO THOUGHT THAT IN THEIR SICK MINDS THEY WOULD BECOME MARTYRS BY KILLING INNOCENT MOTHERS ,FATHERS,BROTHERS,SONS AND DAUGHTERS OF VARIOUS NATIONS.
WHAT ABOUT WACO?(SORRY IF IVE SPELT THAT WRONG),WHAT ABOUT THE SUICIDE BOMBERS THAT BLOW CHILDREN TO PIECES EVERY DAY IN ISRAEL.WHAT ABOUT THE PROBLEMS THATS HAPPENED IN NORTHERN IRELAND.ALL DOWN TO RELIGION AND PEOPLES RELIGIOUS BELIEFS.
PEOPLE SHOULD BE GIVEN A PUBLIC HEALTH WARNING BEFORE SUCCUMBING TO RELIGIOUS NONSENSE..........RELIGION KILLS.

Every thing kills; we all die. No big deal really. Far more disturbing are those who wish to prescribe for all the rest of the world. Religious zealots, especially those of the Abrahamic persusasion, are indeed responsible for a lot of suffering. Those who would quash, suppress and attempt to eliminate religion from the world are no less responsible for great suffering. Think Stalin, among others. The fact is that suffering is everywhere, and can arise from a multitude of causes, many of which are sincerly intended to reduce suffering.

Asherman, I've thoroughly enjoyed reading your above two posts. I too, find that many of today's suffering arise out of intolerance and prejudice.

Coincidentally, I've just posted something in the Books forum, regarding the Chrysalids by John Wyndham. I thought it was an excellent book and how some of the issues can be applied to the world today.

GOOD POSTS ASHERMAN,I DONT THINK THAT YOU ARE IMPLYING THAT THROUGH MY OPINION ON RELIGION THAT I AM ONE OF THOSE THAT COULD CAUSE SUFFERING.
I HOPE NOT AS I WOULDNT WISH SUFFERING ON ANY INNOCENT PERSON UNLIKE THE FANATICALS OF THIS WORLD THAT WOULD GO TO ANY END TO HAVE THEIR WAY IN THIS WORLD.
MUSLIMS ARE MEANT TO BE A PEACEFUL GROUP BUT I HAVE SEEN NO SIGN OF THIS IN RECENT YEARS WITH THEIR ACTS OF VIOLENCE TOWARDS INNOCENT PEOPLE.
YES PEOPLE DO DIE!NO BIG DEAL,IM NOT SO SURE.TRY TO TELL THAT TO THE PARENTS OF INNOCENT CHILDREN KILLED IN THE NAME OF GOD WHO HAVE NO RELIGIOUS PERSUASION WHATSOEVER.
NO ONE ASKS TO BE BORN AND TO DIE AT THE HANDS OF NUTCASES WHO ARE COWARDLY IN THEIR "CAUSES" IS UNBELIEVABLE.
HOW LOW CAN PEOPLE GO TO PROMOTE THEIR OWN BELIEFS.
WILL GOOD PREVAIL OVER EVIL?
IM NOT SO SURE

Obedience - Sabbath: God knows what's in your heart when you observe the ocassion, Would I intervene on the Sabbath if my sheep were falling into danger?

Iceman
There are some other topics where this fits better, and will be more appreciated in those.

HUSKER TELL ME WHERE MY FRIEND I AM QUITE NEW TO THIS SITE.I DO NOT WISH TO OFFEND JUST PUT FORWARD VIEWS IF I FIND IT RELEVANT

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=22116&start=270

ps - can you type without the caps on?

this better husker?
are you offended by my works?
ive been reading your profile and didnt realise you were so god orientated.
there is a saying in yorkshire england
we say what we like and like what we say.
so dont take things to heart

oh and ps husker why do you paste my comments ,most people can understand something after they have read it once.no need to refresh all the time.may god be with you

A courtesy or to help point out specific words very helpful when responding to specific points or a specific person when a topic has many contributors.

To most death is regarded as suffering. It is inevitable, and how ever it arrives the result is the same. In fact death is neither "good", nor "bad/evil", it just is. The length of life is also no indication of how "good" or "bad" that life was. "Live fast, die young and leave a beautiful corpse" is neither better nor worse than to die at the age of 101 in a rest home after a life filled with honors and good fortune. The simple fact of the matter is that the past is exists only as a hazy memory, and the future can never be arrived at. All that exists is this moment in time, and whoops ... its already gone, vanished into the past. Live in each moment. Tempis fugits, momento mori.

"Good" and "evil" may seem to be totally different things, but are they? There is a definitional problem. For the terms to be meaningful they must refer to something that is categorical, and objectively determinable at any time and by any culture. In Malaysia it is scandalous for a woman to sit with her legs spread apart, but to be bare breasted is no big deal. In New Jersey exactly the opposite view is almost universal. What is "good" for one may well be a "bad, or evil" thing to another. If Joe has great wealth, then Moe may be deprived. One can not even exist without the other by way of contrast. Mostly we define the "goodness" or "badness" of an idea or thing in terms of how closely it relates to our culturally defined idea of what "good" and "evil" means. If wealth is "good" then relative poverty must be some degree of "bad". If you wish to avoid "evil", then abandon "good". There is no victory of one over the other, they are in balance.

Iceman, I do not doubt your good intentions, but I do question the results that would ensue if your stated desire to "outlaw" religion were implemented. In "outlawing" religion, you take a position that is only the recepical of that held by religious zealots who would force their views on the rest of us. Religion is not in and of itself the problem, except in some exceptional cases. The missionary impulse of two out of the three primary Abrahamic faiths has certainly caused a great deal of suffering. On the other hand, any idea/ideology held by True Believers has the potential for great harm. Ideology is a dangerous mindset when it becomes intolerant of other ideologies, persons, or groups. One of the great beauties of Anglo-American Common Law, and the humanism of Western Civilization is the amelioration of intolerance. Tolerance can not be achieved by being intolerant of the intolerant, but by retaining our own dedication to objectivity.

It is laudable to think, speak and act in ways that will reduce, or at least mitigate, the amount of suffering associated with living. Indeed, that is how I define "good". If our thoughts and behavior result in increased suffering, then we did "bad". Mostly, we have little control over how things turn out. Your individual intention to eliminate the "evils" of religion by outlawing it is unlikely to be effective. I can not do, as an individual, much toward eliminating hunger throughout the world. Even the finest doctor can not totally defeat even one disease, much less all illness. The greatest general can not assure victory for their cause in every conflict, because no one can control all the variables. We have the greatest chance of reforming the thoughts, words, and actions that result in suffering by reforming ourselves. All humans have envy, greed, jealousy and anger in their hearts. I can't excise those from you, but I can work on eliminating them from myself. In fact, the more I try to change others the less successful I will probably be in reforming myself. As I try to improve the behavior of others, I may well only confirm in them the very traits that I think should be eliminated. Oh, how certain I must be of the rightness of my views to insist that others change themselves to conform to my ideas of "good" and "bad/evil". Tend to your own garden, and let your neighbor tend to his. In the twilight, lean on the fence and exchange views, but as long as there is a weed left in your field don't try to force the neighbor to adopt your fertilizer.

The events of 9/11, Waco, et. al., are not evidence either for, or against, religion in general, nor for the existence or non-existence of God ... not even the Abrahamic God(s). At least some survivors of Hitler's death camps have credited the strength of their faith as their key to survival. POWs, when tortured and deprived of the basic needs, do better in captivity when they have some inner core faith to fall back on. Whether that faith is well-founded or not is beside the point. The Abrahamic conception of God and the duality of good and evil, is not the only conception possible. If the nature of God and good/evil is different from that espoused by the Abrahamic faiths, then religions founded on those differences may not not share the destructive aspects of Abrahamism. How sure are you that "religion kills", when considering Shamanism, Hinduism, Buddhism, the more socially focused religions of Asia, or any one of the score of alternatives to Abrahamic doctrines? Beware the categorical statement.

The number of competing religious missionaries are probably not much different in the American Southwest than they are in Manchester, Mexico City, Toronto, Manila, Madras, Athens, Vilneas, or Vienna. Some just can't let go of the idea that they alone are the chosen vessels of All Truth.

BTW, thank you for not shouting any more, and welcome to A2K.

asherman thankyou for your views,i read with great interest.
although i dont agree with them all i think you do put your views across in a good style.i do agree with some points and like your reasoning.

i wonder where god resides?
maybe prison ,everyone seems to find him there!