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Finding a religion or God?

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anton bonnier
 
Reply Sun 7 Mar, 2004 01:12 am
Edit: Moderator: Moved from Reference to Spirituality & Religion

I have relations, who are seventh day adventist, I have no problem
with this, as they are very dear to me and I would never deliberately
hurt them. On inquiring why they made Saturday their religious day,
they went to great lengths to explain it, I accepted their explanations,
but asked... If those who worshiped their God on a different day would be
heard any lesser, or if at all. Once again, I was told in a round about
way, that it was a sin against God. As They had joined the church
only 5-6 years ago, I was interested in knowing why they joined this
particular church, they said it was revealed to them by reading the
bible ?.
I then used the web to find out all about their church, when I
printed the more negative parts of their religion and showed it to them,
they didn't know about it, but immediately used passages from the bible
to counter act them. ( so they thought ) When I asked if they could
give me any historical facts about their Bible, they said... " The
Bible was written by God, it is, the true history of the world and the lord Jesus Christ, " this had me wondering, if most others in Christian religions believe and found their God, the same way.
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Jim
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Mar, 2004 02:23 am
Many years ago I considered the differences between the various Christian denominations (visualize me holding my hands two or three feet apart) and thought "boy, that's a big difference".

After working in the Middle East for 12 years now, that difference has shrunken in my mind to insignificance.

As far as I'm concerned, as long as you believe:

-God entered his own creation as Jesus of Nazareth
-He died on the cross for the forgiveness of sins
-He rose from the dead
-You accept Christ as Lord and Savior,

then everything else doesn't really matter.
0 Replies
 
solar
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Mar, 2004 01:46 pm
7th day adventists
I think if you delve deeper you will find that the 7th day adventists did not change the sabbath to saturday.
The sabbath has always been saturday, ask anyone Jewish or Muslim.
The catholic church made sunday 'the lord's day' on the belief that Jesus rose from the dead on that day and more so to incorporate the pagan masses who worshipped the sun into their religion.
There is no way of knowing which day Jesus rose, btw, as no one saw between sabbath dusk (fri) and sunday (the lord's day, which didn't exist then), when they arrived to collect his body.
The 7th day of the week is friday dusk until saturday dusk. The first day of the week is Sunday, regardless of what some coercive calendars suggest.
Jesus himself observed the sabbath and i don't understand why the majority of christians don't, considering they are supposed to be following in his footsteps.
I also don't understand why so many christian religions adopted the catholic church version of the lord's day, after forming their own breakaway churches.
There is no argument on which day the sabbath is, as it's been the same day for a very long time, even to this day.
The question is why so many people within the christian community are unaware, or don't care, about which day they worship on.
(save the hubble and namaste) Rolling Eyes
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solar
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Mar, 2004 01:49 pm
to jim
Jesus came to fulfill the law, not to destroy it.
Are you suggesting that he would approve of not keeping the ten commandments?
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anton bonnier
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Mar, 2004 01:15 am
Thank you solar for the information. However I do have a problem when words like "the belief" and "no way of knowing" to me if you say "Belief" or "I believe" isn't that also saying.... "no way to know".... as believing is just that... a guess about something... is it not?.
I think the 10 commandments are a excelent set of ideas, but I do have a problem of where they came from originally, I do "belive" that most Christians "believe" it came from a God, but once again, like them, I'm only guessing.
0 Replies
 
zgreatarteest
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Mar, 2004 06:21 pm
Bibically speaking, The Sabbath, is one day out of any sucessive seven
to be set aside to rest in God. Not any particular day of the week.
The Seventh Day Adventist are considered a cult and not a demonation.
0 Replies
 
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Mar, 2004 07:42 pm
They may be a demonation. I wouldn't know about that. But you're right in saying that they are a cult, zgreaterteest. They are not considered a denomination by most mainstream Christians.
0 Replies
 
anton bonnier
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Mar, 2004 11:12 pm
Finding a Religion or God
zgreatar~M Andrew. By what I have read of Seventh Day Adventist and what their "Beliefs" and aims are. Your statements make it true for all the different religions. and I'll go with that.
0 Replies
 
zgreatarteest
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2004 12:35 am
Re: Finding a Religion or God
anton bonnier wrote:
zgreatar~M Andrew. By what I have read of Seventh Day Adventist and what their "Beliefs" and aims are. Your statements make it true for all the different religions. and I'll go with that.


You might need some help seeing the big difference.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/sda.htm
0 Replies
 
zgreatarteest
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2004 12:46 am
Re: Finding a Religion or God
anton bonnier wrote:
zgreatar~M Andrew. By what I have read of Seventh Day Adventist and what their "Beliefs" and aims are. Your statements make it true for all the different religions. and I'll go with that.


I probably needed to add this explanation for you. I don't know a lot about
all the different religions and am not really that interested. True Christianity
is not a religion and I am more than interested in it. Christianty has
been tried to be made into a religion by many different denominations.
Remember that Christianity is God reaching down for man. Religion is
man reaching all around for a god. No comparison.
0 Replies
 
anton bonnier
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2004 10:40 pm
Re: Finding a Religion or God
[I probably needed to add this explanation for you. I don't know a lot about
all the different religions and am not really that interested. True Christianity
is not a religion and I am more than interested in it. Christianty has
been tried to be made into a religion by many different denominations.
Remember that Christianity is God reaching down for man. Religion is
man reaching all around for a god. No comparison.[/quote]

Quite.... however, that is your interpretation of things, Going by what I have read in the bible, this God started religion, as per say, but as the Bible was written by "men", who had died long after the last witness had left this earth. And it has also been altered many times since by "man", I say "man" because, going by religions history, woman were, and are ( read your Bible )a non advent ),
It sure leaves one with the thought.... what are they all trying to do? find a religion or find a God. I think they just searched and found a religion as launch platform to this God, Because they think this God thing is completely unattainable with out a religion, as they are needed to guide them ( and convince them ).
Religion is the advertising arm for a product you can read for free, but will never meet . Going on the evidence so far, also, does not exist.
0 Replies
 
drogue
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Mar, 2004 08:43 pm
seventh-day sabbath
Someone earlier in this thread suggested that one day in seven could be a sabbath, thqat the specific day didn't matter. Actually, that is incorrect. The Bible is very clear about this. When a translation accurately deals with the original language, for example the Hebrew of Exodus 20:8-11, the sabbath in Hebrew has the marker "eth" connected with the word "shabbath." This makes it definite, like saying in enlgish, "The Sabbath." Not "A Sabbath," but "The Sabbath." Adventists are actually on very biblical ground here, at least as far as being true to the Scriptures goes. Interesting that this "cult" is more biblical on this point than your average Evangelical...
0 Replies
 
zgreatarteest
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Mar, 2004 11:35 pm
Re: Finding a Religion or God
anton bonnier wrote:

Quite.... however, that is your interpretation of things, Going by what I have read in the bible, this God started religion, as per say, but as the Bible was written by "men", who had died long after the last witness had left this earth. And it has also been altered many times since by "man", I say "man" because, going by religions history, woman were, and are ( read your Bible )a non advent ),
It sure leaves one with the thought.... what are they all trying to do? find a religion or find a God. I think they just searched and found a religion as launch platform to this God, Because they think this God thing is completely unattainable with out a religion, as they are needed to guide them ( and convince them ).
Religion is the advertising arm for a product you can read for free, but will never meet . Going on the evidence so far, also, does not exist.


You shouldn't care what I think. I don't even care what I think, but
we all should care very much what God thinks. His Word needs no interpertation, if the Holy Spirit is revealing it's meaning to you, so
I have no need to I try to interpert His Word.

You do have A LOT of catching up to do, based on what you said. You
might try a good non-denominational Bible teaching church for a good
start. We all need help. See Ephesians 4:11

And by the way, men didn't write the Bible by themselves. The Holy
Spirit inspired them. Men aren't smart enough to write anything over
the long of a period of time and as by as many writters that were involved
that didn't even know each other, in most cases, and it still withstand the
test of time and accuracy it has. No, that is not my interpertation. That
is a pure fact to anyone who can get out of their brain long enough
to see it, as 1 Corinthians 2:14 says. To get out of your brain you have
to get conected up with the Holy Spirit. John 3:1-21 tells you how to do
that.

Romans 1:20
1 Corinthians 2:14
Hebrews 10:25
1 Corinthians 12:20-22
0 Replies
 
zgreatarteest
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Mar, 2004 12:06 am
Re: seventh-day sabbath
drogue wrote:
Someone earlier in this thread suggested that one day in seven could be a sabbath, thqat the specific day didn't matter. Actually, that is incorrect. The Bible is very clear about this. When a translation accurately deals with the original language, for example the Hebrew of Exodus 20:8-11, the sabbath in Hebrew has the marker "eth" connected with the word "shabbath." This makes it definite, like saying in enlgish, "The Sabbath." Not "A Sabbath," but "The Sabbath." Adventists are actually on very biblical ground here, at least as far as being true to the Scriptures goes. Interesting that this "cult" is more biblical on this point than your average Evangelical...


We are kind of splitting hairs and swatting nats here, are we not?
God himself set the pattern for a Sabbath. It is one day out
of seven regardless of what mortal men may say it is. If you had
no calendar and didn't have a clue what day of the week it
was, what would you do? Not take a Sabbath because you couldn't
figure out what day of the week it was? Let's get real and use
the pattern God laid down for us. He didn't name a day of the week
so what business do we have trying to do that for anyone but our own
selves. This one does it on this day and the other does it on that day. They are all right on what day they take. It doesn't matter to
God so why should it matter to us? Just do it like God did and He
will be happy. When God's happy, then everybody will be happy.
To say you have to do it on some particular day of the week is pure "religiousness". If there is one thing that God can't stand, it is religiousness. Gods says that, I didn't. Jesus stayed all over the
religious folks behinds, for just such nonsense as this, His whole three
and a half year mininstry.

Genesis 2:2-3
Hebrews 4:4
Hebrews 4:10
0 Replies
 
Eve
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Mar, 2004 12:17 am
I was brought up as a Seventh Day Adventist. It is a very legalistic religion. We kept some of the laws as given to the Israelites in the old testament - such as pigs being unclean animals that we could not touch let alone eat. But other of the old laws were discarded as being unnecessary because of Christ's sacrifice. It never made sense to me.
As for the Sabbath - who decided that Saturday was the seventh day of the week. It may have been that way on our calenders for a long time but if you go back to the beginning of time, whenever that was, who knows? What if at the end of time we discover that Wednesday should actually have been the Sabbath - what is going to happen to all those "law-abiding" SDA's then.
0 Replies
 
zgreatarteest
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Mar, 2004 12:24 am
Eve wrote:
I was brought up as a Seventh Day Adventist. It is a very legalistic religion. We kept some of the laws as given to the Israelites in the old testament - such as pigs being unclean animals that we could not touch let alone eat. But other of the old laws were discarded as being unnecessary because of Christ's sacrifice. It never made sense to me.
As for the Sabbath - who decided that Saturday was the seventh day of the week. It may have been that way on our calenders for a long time but if you go back to the beginning of time, whenever that was, who knows? What if at the end of time we discover that Wednesday should actually have been the Sabbath - what is going to happen to all those "law-abiding" SDA's then.


I don't know know, but God hates religiousness and that is religiousness.
Let me rephrase that. it is religiouness if you demand everyone else is
wrong but you. See my disertation on this above.
0 Replies
 
drogue
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Mar, 2004 01:30 am
Just telling you what the biblical languages say. Go find an expert in Hebrew to argue with. Jesus says if you love Him, Keep His commandments (John 14:15). Maybe I'm just to simple, but spending time with Him where the Bible speaks of a day set apart to be reminded of His Creatorhood and His desire to recreate me sounds very special. You labeled obedience as religiousness. This is your own problem.
0 Replies
 
zgreatarteest
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Mar, 2004 03:09 am
drogue wrote:
Just telling you what the biblical languages say. Go find an expert in Hebrew to argue with. Jesus says if you love Him, Keep His commandments (John 14:15). Maybe I'm just to simple, but spending time with Him where the Bible speaks of a day set apart to be reminded of His Creatorhood and His desire to recreate me sounds very special. You labeled obedience as religiousness. This is your own problem.


You need to reread what I wrote, my friend. We have no quarrel
about obedience. We are to and should observe the Sabbath. I
did not label obedience as religiousness. In fact I did not even
imply anything about obedience to the observance of the Sabbath.
I said it was religiousness to squabble over what day out of seven
was the right day of the week. You are the one that needs to go
back and read Exodus 20:8-11. See any day of the week therein?
True that He was talking to Jews, so naturally they would use the
Sabbath day they were accustom. I'm not Jewish, are you? If you
want to go a live under the old covenant like they do, it's perfectly
OK with everybody on this planet. I will live under the new covenant
and enjoy my freedom in the law that Christ provided for me.
I will observe my Sabbath on Sunday. If I have a reason to change
it to Saturday I will do that. If Wednesday comes about at some
point to be the best I will do that. As long as I set aside one day
out of each seven I will be obedient to the commandent. If you don't
think so, you can go back and read Exodus 20:8-11 over again.

If you will do what I do you won't have to worry about it. I just do what
Jesus commands found in Mark 12:28-31. Now if you can get religious
on me about that you are free to give it your best shot. The New Testament was written in Greek so you will have to find a Greek expert
to argue with. I would offer you my services, but you might consider me bias. Please do go back and reread what I wrote and see that you sort of
jumped to a conclusion that I didn't say. No problem, I make mistakes
too. I've even sort of cultivated a taste for crow over my many years.

We really don't have an argument here. I am sure you can see that.
0 Replies
 
drogue
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Mar, 2004 10:49 am
No, the crow eating is for you. It is beside the point anyway. The Bible, both the Hebrew of the Old Testament and the Greek of the New, compeltely sustain the seventh day of the week as the Sabbath. You said any day in seven would do. I simply informed you that the original biblical languages do not support your idea. You have failed to respond to the issue of the specificity marker in the Hebrew <em>eth-shabbat</em>. That's OK. It is because you can't . That's OK. There are many things I cannot do. The Bible says the seventh day. No jew today has trouble finding the Sabbath, nor does any first day-keeping Christian have difficulty finding which day the venerable day of the sun is.

Do keep in mind that man cannot make holy a day that God said was not holy. Sunday can no more be made holy by a man, whether pope or pagan, than adultery can be made holy. In both cases God's law was written by His finger, not ours. And the New Covenant is there to write His law into our foreheads (see Hebrews 10:16). Same law, different substance, flesh instead of stone.

Jesus is wonderful!
0 Replies
 
zgreatarteest
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Mar, 2004 02:49 pm
drogue wrote:
No, the crow eating is for you. It is beside the point anyway. The Bible, both the Hebrew of the Old Testament and the Greek of the New, compeltely sustain the seventh day of the week as the Sabbath. You said any day in seven would do. I simply informed you that the original biblical languages do not support your idea. You have failed to respond to the issue of the specificity marker in the Hebrew <em>eth-shabbat</em>. That's OK. It is because you can't . That's OK. There are many things I cannot do. The Bible says the seventh day. No jew today has trouble finding the Sabbath, nor does any first day-keeping Christian have difficulty finding which day the venerable day of the sun is.

Do keep in mind that man cannot make holy a day that God said was not holy. Sunday can no more be made holy by a man, whether pope or pagan, than adultery can be made holy. In both cases God's law was written by His finger, not ours. And the New Covenant is there to write His law into our foreheads (see Hebrews 10:16). Same law, different substance, flesh instead of stone.

Jesus is wonderful!


OK, since you are a legalist I will concur that you are Biblically correct.
I thought that was understood. Legally you are correct. Now, like I
said if you want to live under the Old Covenant legalism, that is your
right and privilege to so if it makes you feel better. If you are going
to do that you are going to have to be legalistic about all the commandments and keep them perfectly, or you're out without some
animal sacrifice by a Jewish Priest to cover for your sins. God gave the commandments to show us we couldn't keep them perfectly no matter
how hard we tried and needed a Savior. 1 John 5:12-4 tells us to keep
them, but in Christ they are not burdensome. Burdensome here is the
key word. "My yoke is easy, My burden is lite."

Are you going to also be legalistic and demand that all be circumcised
too? 1 Corinthians 7:19. Are you going to make sure all your food is
Kosher? It's not what you put in your mouth that is important, but what
comes out of it. See Matthew 15:16-18.


I have met many people in Christ, that love the Lord with all their hearts
and still want to keep the Law. What a miserable fence to have to try to
straddle. I can see us standing before God and Him saying to me that
He appreciates me keeping a Sabbath and praying and fasting and
ceasing from my labor and seeking Him, but since I did it on Sunday
instead of Saturday it was not "The Sabbath" and is null and void. Him telling you that He appreciates you doing the same and that the calendar was wrong and it really wasn't "The Jewish Sabbath" that you were observing and it was a waste of time. I hope that sounds silly, because I intended for it to sound silly. It is silly. However I do believe that
1 John 5:2 means what it says, if that is any consolation to you.

I rest my case. I know I have not convinced you, because I have known
to many like you. A religious legalistic spirit is a mean sucker to deal
with and is pure folly to even try. I have follied enough, thank you very
much. Yes, Jesus is wonderful and we can agree on that. We are brothers
in Him and that is really what counts.

1 Corinthians 10:27-29 (Verse 29 is the key verse)
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