Thanks Fatihah
It looks like you put a lot of time and thought into this.
Here is my analysis/criticism of what you've provided.
Fatihah wrote:
A pattern that repeats itself can only originate from intelligence.
Let us further prove the existence of God by proving that unintelligence cannot originate a repeated pattern. To do so, we first have to analyze something that is uninteligent. Let's take the body of a dead person. Now if I ask the dead person to draw me a checkerboard pattern, what will be the result? Nothing. Why? The dead person cannot learn or comprehend what it is being told. In other words, it is unintelligent. As a result of its unintelligence, it cannot create intelligence or use it to create a pattern. Let us look at a new born baby. A baby is an intelligent species. Yet if I ask a new born to draw a repeating pattern with a paint brush, what will be the result. The answer is obvious. Nothing. Here, an intelligent being cannot create a simple drawing. Why? Because as we know, the child lacks the ability to comprehend what they are being told as a new born, thus lacking intelligence and from their lack of intelligence, cannot create a repeating pattern. Thus we see from two tested subjects of unintelligence and even slight intelligence that a pattern that repeats itself cannot be created, thus proving that it can only originate from intelligent design. Therefore, the solar system, water cycle, and other natural phenomenoms within the universe that repeat had to originate from intelligent design, further proving that God is the originator of the universe.
What I get from your claim:
If an intelligent person creates a repeating pattern, then the intelligent person did it.
If something else creates a repeating pattern, then that something else didn't actually do it, God actually did it.
It seems that you are simply asserting that you will categorize any pattern that you see as either man-made or God-made.
Fatihah wrote:
Thus we see that when tested, as provided above, unintelligence fails to create something with intelligence or repeated patterns, thus proving that the universe and life itself originated from God, who is the intelligent designer.
The above didn't provide a test, the above told how you would like to categorize patterns that you see in the world.
Fatihah wrote:
Creation by Chance causes disorder
A pattern that repeats itself as well as organization can only originate from one making a decision. This is also easily proven. .......
Maybe it is easily proven, if you consider drawing analogies a valid method of proof (which I don't).
It seems even more easily dis-"proven" by analogy.
Lets look at a test subject:
Potassium chromate in solution. Just leave it in a container. Wait a few days. Find structured crystals. Look at pattern, look at organization.
This one is also pretty fun to watch:
In the same way that potassium chloride is stupid.
Stupid things can organize and make patterns.
Therefor no intelligence is required to make patterns or to organize.
Correct.
And anyway how does Fatihah account the "repeated pattern" of disorder as specified in the second law of thermodynamics...the work of "the Devil" perhaps ?
0 Replies
Berty McJock
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Thu 14 Feb, 2013 01:53 pm
@MattDavis,
Quote:
Potassium chromate in solution. Just leave it in a container. Wait a few days. Find structured crystals. Look at pattern, look at organization.
Quote:
In the same way that potassium chloride is stupid.
Stupid things can organize and make patterns.
you could also add the fibonacci sequence to this. a mathematically elegant, repeating pattern, which not only repeats in itself, but also repeats throughout the natural world, e.g. pine cones, sunflower seeds, snails shells, leaves, etc.
last i heard these were unintelligent too.
0 Replies
Fatihah
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Thu 14 Feb, 2013 02:05 pm
@MattDavis,
For starters, when shown that untintelligence cannot originate a repeating pattern, as shown in the lack of intelligence in a dead body and a new born baby, you've presented nothing to the contrary. In other words, you have not shown from the evidence provided that a dead person or a new born can in fact create a simple checkerboard. Thus the evidence that only intelligence can originate the patterns in the universe, proves that the origin of the universe id from intelligent design, i.e. Allah(God).
fatiha, if you are saying that only intelligent entities can create patterns, then surely by saying that God, or Allah can, and that humans can, you're putting us on a level playing field with God/Allah, or to put it another way, we have the capacity to be as intelligent as God. how does that work?
have you ever asked a dolphin to create a pattern? or a whale? crows? they are all considered intelligent.
Intelligence and ability is two different things, and not all intelligence is equal. One can have a higher degree of intelligence than another. So stating that humans are intelligent is not the same as saying that they are equal to God.
a baby cannot create a pattern beacuse it has not yet develloped the necessary skills, not because of a lack of intelligence. if a baby had no intelligence, it wouldn't be able to learn.
a dead body cannot create a pattern, not because it is unintelligent, but because it is dead. it cannot create anything. your arguement doesn't hold water.
and the skill the baby lacks is the ability to learn and comprehend, in conparison to when the child grows.The same for a dead person. So it is unintelligence that prevents the child and a dead to create a pattern. Your rebuttal fails.
stating that humans are intelligent is not the same as saying that they are equal to God.
fair comment, but you are still awarding us a special status, that is speculation at best.
look again at Matts clips, that is untintelligent pattern making, as is the fibonacci sequence, as i mentioned.
i wonder how you define intelligence. recent studies have shown that a dolphin, apart from linguistic skills, and the ability to learn "tricks", can recognise its reflection in a mirror, and actually starts checking itself out. this is rare in animals. how about whales, which also use sophisticated language, and, like dolphins, are capable of strategising, and crows, who use that age old signifier of intelligence, tool making, to retrieve things it cannot reach? these are but a few examples of a higher level of intelligence in animals. i doubt any of them would draw a pretty pattern if you asked it though.
and the skill the baby lacks is the ability to learn and comprehend,
don't be daft! of course a baby has the ability to learn, if it didn't naturally, it would have to learn it, which it couldn't do without the ability to learn.
and my point r.e. dead people still stands. they are dead, incapable of anything except fertilising. intelligence doesn't even come in to it.
i respect your faith, but your examples just don't work.
And a b aby's ability to learn is deficient in comparison to an adult. And your example of dead fails since a dead person is still unintelligent and cannot create any patterm.
Unless you are stating that humans are unintelligent, then you woukd be saying it yourself.
nope, i never said, or insinuated that. where you got that from i don't know.
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Intelligence is the ability to learn and comprehend
intelligence is a whole lot more than that. and you said there are different levels of intelligence. what different levels of possesing the ability to learn and comprehend are there...and i don't mean like a dog learnng tricks through association, that's not comprehension.
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I stated that it takes intelligence to draw a repeating pattern
prove it with evidence, i doubt you will though, you will merely express your opinion, seeing as you have already ignored evidence to the contrary.
in short i want you to explain clearly and conscicely exactly WHY only an intelligent entity can create a pattern. what are the mechanics of this?
And a b aby's ability to learn is deficient in comparison to an adult
actually it's superior, as it doesn't question things yet, it merely takes it all in and learns.
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And your example of dead fails since a dead person is still unintelligent and cannot create any patterm.
it is not just unintelligent. you don't understand. it is lifeless, of course it has no intelligence, it has nothing. it is inanimate, a mere object. intelligence, as i said, doesn't even enter the equation. and for the record...
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And your example of dead fails since
it was YOUR example. i was showing how it was a bad example.
Inteligence as defined in the dictionary and the definition that I'm referring too means the ability to learn and comprehend. The different levels of intelligence varies with amongst individuals. I may be able to learn and comprehend algebra better than you or vice versa.
As for evidence that it takes intelligence to originate a repeating pattern, the evidence was presented in the fact that neither a new born or a dead body has the ability to draw a repeating pattern due to the lack of intelligence. Your inability to prove otherwise supports so.
actually it's superior, as it doesn't question things yet, it merely takes it all in and learns.
Actually it's not since it can't create a repeating pattern
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it is not just unintelligent. you don't understand. it is lifeless, of course it has no intelligence, it has nothing. it is inanimate, a mere object. intelligence, as i said, doesn't even enter the equation. and for the record...
And a lifeless being has no intelligence, so it is still based on umintelligence. And based on your own logic, if life is required to create a repeating pattern, then that still debunks the claim that the universe originated from a Big Bang, or anything that science or atheists claim since the singularity was not lifelike. Further supporting the existence of Allah(God).
And for the record, your example attempting to refute my example regarding a dead body still fails.
For starters, when shown that untintelligence cannot originate a repeating pattern, as shown in the lack of intelligence in a dead body and a new born baby, you've presented nothing to the contrary. In other words, you have not shown from the evidence provided that a dead person or a new born can in fact create a simple checkerboard.
With all due respect, providing this analogy does not prove that un-intelligence cannot originate (create?) a pattern.
Analogy is not a method of proof that I accept.
If analogy is a method of proof that YOU accept,
then I think I have provided an analogy that proves the opposite.
Specifically that of spontaneous crystal formation.
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MattDavis
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Thu 14 Feb, 2013 06:07 pm
@Berty McJock,
Quote:
...these are but a few examples of a higher level of intelligence in animals. i doubt any of them would draw a pretty pattern if you asked it though...
This reminds me of another cool video of an elephant drawing a picture of an elephant.
