1
   

Can someone address this PLEASE?

 
 
Magus
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Oct, 2004 02:12 am
Do we tee off before or after the stoning, fly?

Back in the day, crucifixions and executions were public... local innkeepers would charge premium prices for rooms with a good view of the proceedings.
That was before mass media spoiled it all...
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Oct, 2004 09:32 am
Dragonfly is wise not to pull quotes from the Bible in an attempt to prove a particular ideology re the Bible. Anytime either side uses such proof texting--selecting a specific statement with no consideration for the history, culture, experience etc. of the writer and without consideration of the plethora of other documentation available to help us better understand the Bible--the interpretation will as often as not be incorrect or inconsistent with the larger context. I think this is true even among some people of faith.

The Bible is remarkable literature and has been a great blessing to those who have experienced the God of the Bible. Those who have not experienced the God of the Bible consider such belief foolishness and some think it even evil. But neither camp is able to use the Bible to prove their particular belief.
0 Replies
 
Magus
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Oct, 2004 12:05 pm
Foxfyre, ABUSE of the Bible is rampant... and it's not a new phenomenon.
(Ab)Using the Bible, we can justify exterminating those we label "witches", "heretics" or "Christ-killers"(Jews).
The Bible has been (ab)used to castigate Democracy and justify Monarchy AND Slavery.

Anytime the Bible is (ab)used to justify cruelty and denigrate things like MERCY and compassion... we know we are dealing with evil.

Your sig line is a quote from Adam Smith : "Mercy to the guilty is cruelty to the innocent".

(NOT the kind of thing I think likely to have been uttered by the Fisherman from Galilee.)
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Oct, 2004 12:25 pm
If you had access to all my quotes since my birth here on A2K, Magus, you would see that I have been a consistent advocate against abuse of the Bible via proof texting. And I disagree that Jesus and Adam Smith would have been at odds with each other about much of anything related to fiscal or social policy.
0 Replies
 
sp3kdsofl
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Oct, 2004 02:45 pm
I'll give it a try
Colossians 2:6-23 says


[quote]Freedom From Human Regulations Through Life With Christ
6So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in him, 7rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.
8See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.
9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. 11In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.
13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.[4]
16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.
20Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21"Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence. [/quote]


In my opinion this means that Jesus fulfilled that old testament law and we are no longer to live according to them.

The bible also says in 1 Corinthians 4: 1-5

[quote]1So then, men ought to regard us as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the secret things of God. 2Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful. 3I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God. [/quote]

I am not to judge. I can only live my life in a way that I beleive is pleasing to God and for that I will be judged when I stand before him.

I look froward to hearing your response.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Oct, 2004 03:02 pm
Sp, welcome to A2K and glad to see you plowed right in. What the Bible says to you, I believe, is not to be questioned for the most part. However, I believe you can find passages in the New Testament have Jesus saying that he did not come to abolish the law but rather to fulfill it--that is, the law is still valid but through Him we are no longer subject to penalty for having broken it. Then he (and the Apostle Paul) also said when it comes to the Law, common sense should guide us in its implementation. (This is why he himself followed the intent of the law but not always the letter), but believe his followers should render under Caesar what is Caesars and unto God what is God's.

He thus drew a clear distinction between civil law and God's law.

As for not judging, the Old and New Testament is clear that we are not to judge the heart or soul of another, but that does not mean that we are not to judge the actions of another. In Corinthians, Paul explictly referenced Christians who practice immorality and/or disrupt the congregation and said such things must not be condoned.

I think it all goes back to the necessity of taking the Bible as a whole to know what it actually says. A few verses plucked out of the text may be applicable to one particular event or situation, but is very likely not to be applicable to all.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Oct, 2004 03:09 pm
Re: I'll give it a try
sp3kdsofl wrote:
Colossians 2:6-23 says


[quote]Freedom From Human Regulations Through Life With Christ
6So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in him, 7rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.
8See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.
9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. 11In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.
13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.[4]
16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.
20Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21"Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.
[/color]

In my opinion this means that Jesus fulfilled that old testament law and we are no longer to live according to them.[/quote]

Collosians was written by Paul...who never met Jesus and who obviously never discussed anything with Jesus.

Here is what Jesus had to say about this:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets. I have come, not abolish them, but to fulfill them. Of this much I assure you: UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, NOT THE SMALLEST LETTER OF THE LAW, NOT THE SMALLEST PART OF A LETTER, SHALL BE DONE AWAY WITH UNTIL IT ALL COME TRUE." Matthew 5: 17ff

Mind you...Jesus said that he was not here to change the law...not one word...not one letter...not one stroke of one letter.

And that was to hold until Heaven and Earth pass away!

That is rather emphatic, wouldn't you say?

So the question that arises is...which do you want to accept...the word of Paul or of Jesus?


Quote:
The bible also says in 1 Corinthians 4: 1-5

[quote]1So then, men ought to regard us as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the secret things of God. 2Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful. 3I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.
[/color]

I am not to judge. I can only live my life in a way that I beleive is pleasing to God and for that I will be judged when I stand before him.[/quote]

Well...that is good...and I admire it.

I, on the other hand, think the Bible is mythology...so I have decided to live my life in a way that I suppose to be pleasing to me....which is to say, I lead my life in a "live and let live" way.

I feel that I am as moral, ethical, honest, and empathetic to my fellow humans as any Christians motivated by what they suppose their god expects of them.


Quote:
I look froward to hearing your response.


I look forward to hearing any comments you have on what I said in response.


(I like your avatar. Is that you?)
0 Replies
 
sp3kdsofl
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Oct, 2004 03:12 pm
I agree with you.....
I was just trying to answer the question of the Dr. Laura answer. The woman wanted to know about all of the things written in the old testament and the point is - is that those requirements and regulations were fulfilled by Christ and are no longer necessary in order to have a relationship with God. I wanted to use some scriptures to back that up.

I entirely agree with you about people twisting the word of God for thier own purpose and for those of us who choose to beleive and obey it - we should know what it says.

I know for many years I had been a "do this" and "you can't do that". But over the past year or two as I have come to more of an understanding of God's grace an mercy I have found so much more freedom to be the person I freely want to be and to love God freely without being weighted down by the opinions of man.

Quote:
Galatians 5

Freedom in Christ

1It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
2Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
7You were running a good race. Who cut in on you and kept you from obeying the truth? 8That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. 9"A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough." 10I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion will pay the penalty, whoever he may be. 11Brothers, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!
13You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. 14The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 15If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

Life by the Spirit

16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Oct, 2004 03:23 pm
Re: I agree with you.....
sp3kdsofl wrote:
I was just trying to answer the question of the Dr. Laura answer. The woman wanted to know about all of the things written in the old testament and the point is - is that those requirements and regulations were fulfilled by Christ and are no longer necessary in order to have a relationship with God.



Only if you take Paul's word over the word of Jesus...which seem strange to me.

Comment on that.
0 Replies
 
sp3kdsofl
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Oct, 2004 03:45 pm
Did I miss something.......
I'm sorry but I do not understand your comment. I do not see how Paul and Jesus contradict themselves....

However.....I will admit that I struggle with Paul. He was a Pharisee and was all about setting laws for people to follow. I see that Paul went out to the Gentiles to teach them about rules and regulations for their churches/people. I struggle at time with thoughts of "are Paul's teachings really from God" or "are they from his own background tying to impress them upon another people".

Would you be more specific in your request for me to comment.

Quote:
Ephisians 2:11-22

One in Christ

11Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)-- 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Oct, 2004 03:59 pm
Re: Did I miss something.......
sp3kdsofl wrote:
I'm sorry but I do not understand your comment. I do not see how Paul and Jesus contradict themselves....

However.....I will admit that I struggle with Paul. He was a Pharisee and was all about setting laws for people to follow. I see that Paul went out to the Gentiles to teach them about rules and regulations for their churches/people. I struggle at time with thoughts of "are Paul's teachings really from God" or "are they from his own background tying to impress them upon another people".

Would you be more specific in your request for me to comment.


Well first of all...thank you for your responses and postings on this issue. You are an excellent poster for a newbie...and you say what you have to say in a very nice way.

In response to your last request, allow me to quote directly from my post up above:


Quote:
Collosians was written by Paul...who never met Jesus and who obviously never discussed anything with Jesus.

Here is what Jesus had to say about this:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets. I have come, not abolish them, but to fulfill them. Of this much I assure you: UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, NOT THE SMALLEST LETTER OF THE LAW, NOT THE SMALLEST PART OF A LETTER, SHALL BE DONE AWAY WITH UNTIL IT ALL COME TRUE." Matthew 5: 17ff

Mind you...Jesus said that he was not here to change the law...not one word...not one letter...not one stroke of one letter.

And that was to hold until Heaven and Earth pass away!

That is rather emphatic, wouldn't you say?

So the question that arises is...which do you want to accept...the word of Paul or of Jesus?




Paul and Jesus are diametrically opposed on this issue, sp3kdsofl....Jesus saying he definitely did not come to change the law....and Paul insisting that the law no longer applies. (Do you have a first name I can use for a bit?)

Fact is, almost all early Jewish Christians disagreed strongly with Paul...in fact, the Dead Sea Scrolls talk of an anti-Christ currently walking the planet teaching heresy...which many scholars suspect was a reference to Paul.

But Paul had an agenda quite different from Jesus.

Paul intended to preach primarily to the gentiles; they were his focus. So essentially...he disregarded what Jesus had to say (never truly dealt with it, in fact)...and went on his merry way.

The question for a third time in different words is: Do you want to accept Paul's teachings on this...or the teachings of Jesus?
0 Replies
 
Magus
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Oct, 2004 10:34 pm
Kosher laws, circumcision, ritual baths, animal sacrifices...
That's a whole lotta Law.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Oct, 2004 12:53 am
I don't know how I lost track of this thread.

foxfyre wrote:
I don't think the ancient Jews even considered that there was any such thing as homosexual orientation.


Coming into contact with Persian and Mycenaean/Greek cultures, the ancient Jews most certainly would have considered such a thing as homosexual/bisexual orientation, which was prevalent in those cultures and societies, and with which the ancient Jews most certainly had contact.

foxfyre wrote:
There is simply no account of any individual demonstrating homosexual tendencies and no accounts of same sex relationships.


It doesn't describe any individuals in particular, but the mere mention of the activity of a man lying with another man in the manner of a woman is an account of a homosexual tendency.

foxfyre wrote:
While the ancients were very aware of temple prostitutes and pagan ceremonies involving sex, if these should include homosexual activity, it was considered especially perverse.


But whether the ancient Jews, or at least the writers of the Bible, considered homosexuality perverse in any capacity or not isn't the point. That point is obvious. The point is that by describing it, and prescribing a punishment for it, they were very well aware of the activity of homosexuality.

foxfyre wrote:
It has been even in my lifetime that many people were still totally ignorant of or barely aware of homosexual orientation and didn't know a soul who was gay. All gays amd lesbians of small town America thought themselves different or abnormal and kept it hidden.


But that describes behavior and knowledge specific to that society and those times. The cultures of Persia and Mycenae/Greece were outright homosexual/bisexual, and they most certainly didn't think themselves different or abnormal and keep it hidden. You are applying your experiences in your lifetime to the people of the ancient world and drawing conclusions thereof. You say it's non-productive to assign 21st century morality to other cultures of other times, but you've done exactly that.

foxfyre wrote:
Others have pointed out that some anicent pagan cultures were less inhibited, but the ancient Jew was ordered by his religion to keep apart from those, not intermarry, etc. which would have enhance the Jewish naivete on this subject.


Yeah, it would have kept a lot of ancient Jews naive and ignorant of themselves much like the small town people during your lifetime, and it follows that, like those small town people to whom you refer, there would have been gays and lesbians among the ancient Jews also, no?
0 Replies
 
 

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