Is it possible to prove the existence of a loving God?

@mark noble,

Quote:

Is everything randomly planned or planned to be random?

I don't see planning to be necessary. She (The Universe) is the way She is because that's the only way She can be. She's a natural phenom

Quote:

Either way, Good and Evil are ONLY a point of view.

I see it as another expression of relativity. Given our differences we can nevertheless define good as something that benefits most of us. However if the porkers were in command intelligence would be considered an iniquity. They would keep us in muddy pens and doubtless slaughter us for food; although they surely wouldn't torture you as we do them, by first hanging you up by the legs then cutting your throat so you bleed to death

2 Replies

@dalehileman,

Dale....

Is 'she' a directive or are you trying to induce an operative to substantiate a subjective?
Or did the movie 'Dogma' touch a nerve?

Stop impregnating utter shite, mingled with clear wisdom please.
This is how religions are formed..... as you know.

Take care what you preach, there are 50 disciples searching for ANY hem to cling to.

1 Reply

@dalehileman,

Nice usage of absolute shite.

0 Replies

@mark noble,

Quote:

Is 'she' a directive or are you trying to induce an operative to substantiate a subjective?

I'm not sure because frankly Mark I don't have the required vocabulary. However in my pantheism I do acknowledge a certain subjectivity, which I however call abstraction

Quote:

Or did the movie 'Dogma' touch a nerve?

Sorry not familiar with. A quickie Wicki however

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogma_(film)

…….would seem to indicate Her supposed infallibility to be an issue, a subject I'd be happy to discuss if specifics were more evident

Quote:

Stop impregnating utter shite, mingled with clear wisdom please.

Yes, no, what, who, me

Quote:

This is how religions are formed..... as you know.

Be happy to respond, Mark, if you'd elaborate a bit

Quote:

Take care what you preach, there are 50 disciples searching for ANY hem to cling to.

I didn't think I was so preachy

1 Reply

@dalehileman,

You join the ignored Dale.. bye:)

1 Reply

@mark noble,

Quote:

You join the ignored Dale.. bye:)

Mark, not the very first time by any means

1 Reply

@dalehileman,

Quote:

Quote:
Re: mark noble (Post 5207905)
Quote:
You join the ignored Dale.. bye:)

Mark, not the very first time by any means

And it probably will not be the last, Dale! The only proper, realistic response to people who claim they are putting you on ignore, after getting a laugh out of it, is: "Promises, promises!"

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

, after getting a laugh out of it, is: "Promises, promises!"

Trouble is, Frank, the serious response hereabout is so oft indistinguishable from the "ignoring" or dismissive

1 Reply

@dalehileman,

I cannot imagine how one could prove (or disprove) the existence of a particular entity called a God. I can, however, imagine how pantheists or Hindus convince themselvess--if not skeptics--of the God-like or divine nature of Ultimate Reality or Absolute Nature, because that's a matter of value ascription (axiology) rather than ontology.

1 Reply

@JLNobody,

Quote:

I can, however, imagine how pantheists or Hindus convince themselvess--if not skeptics--of the God-like or divine nature of Ultimate Reality

Conceded it's quite a stretch of reason to entertain the necessary degree of abstraction

1 Reply

@dalehileman,

Granted, in fact no "stretch" of reason can accomplish that; it must be a transcendence of reason--and that is for no more than an occasional glimpse,
yet a liberating glimpse.

1 Reply

JL..Dale…

…I would like to agree with part of what you two are saying, but in order to do so, I have to reword it:

I agree that I cannot imagine a way one could “prove” that no gods exist. I have stretched my imagination to the extreme…and I cannot come up with a scenario that would work for that part of your comments.

I can, however, imagine a way to prove that a “GOD” exists…but that would have to be done by the GOD…not by a human (see below for caveat). I do agree that I cannot imagine a way one (a human) could “prove” that a GOD exists.

If a GOD exists, of course, all bets are off. A GOD, should IT choose, could easily PROVE that it exists…and I see no reason to assume that it could not use a human as a vehicle for that proof...I just cannot imagine how it would work. (No…Jesus did not even come close to proving that a GOD exists.)

One other caveat: It is possible that each of us IS GOD…and I don’t even want to get into the implications about proofs that would raise.

All of which leads ME to: I do not know if a GOD (or gods) exist; I do not know if no gods exist; I see no reason to suppose gods cannot exist; I see no reason to suppose gods have to exist; I see no unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess on the question.

I have given up trying to label that position on the Internet (unless it is essential to the discussion)…but that is the position I am left with.

May I ask both of you what there is about the situation that leads you elsewhere if in fact you are elsewhere?

1 Reply

@JLNobody,

Quote:

Granted, in fact no "stretch" of reason can accomplish that…….an occasional glimpse,...yet a liberating glimpse.

Well put JL. As well known in the field of mental health, in some areas reason has to give way to intuition

0 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

JL..Dale…

Frank

Quote:

…I would like to agree with part of what you two are saying, but in order to do so, I have to reword it:

That's allowed, esp in my own case as I concede to wanderlust

Quote:

I agree that I cannot imagine a way one could “prove” that no gods exist…….

Esp in line with the undeniable general observation that nothing is entirely anything while everything is partly something else. However the same principle does offer some support to those who actually maintain proof

Quote:

I can, however, imagine a way to prove that a “GOD” exists…but that would have to be done by the GOD…not by a human (see below for caveat).

She is unlikely to do so in a clear and undeniable manner satisfying all

Quote:

I do agree that I cannot imagine a way one (a human) could “prove” that a GOD exists.

Part of the problem being one's def of "God". The pantheist maintains Her presence as manifest

Quote:

If a GOD exists, of course, all bets are off. A GOD, should IT choose, could easily PROVE that it exists…

I disagree that She could, but only to the extent that some of us believe nothing

Quote:

One other caveat: It is possible that each of us IS GOD

Of course, it's obvious, so we apodictical existential pantheists have maintained for the longest time

Quote:

…and I don’t even want to get into the implications about proofs that would raise.

Me neither

Quote:

All of which leads ME to: I do not know if a GOD (or gods) exist; I do not know if no gods exist; I see no reason to suppose gods cannot exist;

Me neither

Quote:

I see no reason to suppose gods have to exist;

Again I suppose it depends on your def

Quote:

I see no unambiguous evidence…...

Join the club

Quote:

I have given up trying to label that position…...

Uncertainty

Quote:

May I ask both of you

Of course, why not

Quote:

….what there is about the situation that leads you elsewhere if in fact you are elsewhere?

What situation Frank, and where was it leading us before we took the reins to go elsewhere, if that's indeed where we went

0 Replies

@werter,

I grew up in a young earth creationist environment and spent half my childhood refuting the evils of evolutionary biology and so on...

This last summer I had a boring job and spent a lot of time reading about evolution and found it is very consistent with reality. I don't see how evolution makes room for a loving God though. The process of natural selection and common descent and all is really fascinating but seems a bit cruel as a process to get us to where we are today. Now I am struggling with my faith because my whole worldview is turned upside down from years of creation research insanity and I can't separate my faith from this illogical nonsense. God seems pretty distant and not terribly loving at this point. Any advice?

2 Replies

@rk321912,

Yea, Werter, good q indeed

http://able2know.org/topic/207840-1

0 Replies

@rk321912,

Quote:

Re: werter (Post 5138306)
I grew up in a young earth creationist environment and spent half my childhood refuting the evils of evolutionary biology and so on...

This last summer I had a boring job and spent a lot of time reading about evolution and found it is very consistent with reality. I don't see how evolution makes room for a loving God though. The process of natural selection and common descent and all is really fascinating but seems a bit cruel as a process to get us to where we are today. Now I am struggling with my faith because my whole worldview is turned upside down from years of creation research insanity and I can't separate my faith from this illogical nonsense. God seems pretty distant and not terribly loving at this point. Any advice?

Too bad about the 'young earth' background but anything can be overcome. I assume you were in some fundamental religion that took the bible literally. Didn't the scripture about 'a thousand years is as a day and a day as a thousand years' give you a clue about the metaphorical nature of the book?

As for the cruel nature of the world we live in, yes it is. It is obvious that human life in the flesh is expendable. Why are you surprised? Weren't you told that the flesh was of no real importance and that God's realm was not of this world? What difference would it make what process God used to make life? I fail to see the source of your confusion.

Nobody said it would be easy. There will be many stumbling blocks thrown in your way. Don't be a pussy. If something does not make sense in the very biggest picture you can manage, maybe you are not looking at it the right way. Or maybe you picked up a piece of useless trash (like a young earth). Just throw it out with the bath water. Keep the baby though.

0 Replies

@werter,

Firstly, i am a Christian(a person who pledges allegiance to Lord Jesus CHRIST). There is an Old World (physical) concept of God which is "the sky"or "Father Sky" in relation to "Mother Earth"or Goddess. They are not fairy tale magical concepts where we can talk to them & ask them for a ferrari or a luxury mansion, they are merely symbolic physical representations of male and female. They do also keep our physical bodies alive. Old World cultures referred to them as the parents (Father & Mother) of all creation. But this is all just a physical concept of god. The true quest has always been to know the spirit or psychology of God, not the physique of god. Only Lord Jesus knows the spirit of God because he is the spirit of God which is all about FAMILY(or the way of the Father), human beings looking after human beings like family, his commandment love one another etc etc. Hes not about loving other species either, because each specie is only obligated to look after their own kind. Therefore, humans should look after humans. Our survival depends on it. We can either help ourselves or self-destruct. I know the world doesn't always seem like a magical place, but realistically it is a brutal battleground for the survival of all species. Our hard working grandfathers have a saying "life is just blood, sweat and tears" But i think they forgot to include "prayers"as well. It can get tough out there at times, but God bless you anyway

0 Replies

@werter,

Wouldn't use the term "prove." If there were ANY proof at all for God we wouldn't be asking for it.

Might be the wrong questions we're asking about God. Have to assume a being as God is usually described as will be in every sense of the word alien to human beings. Way we think about things wont be anywhere close to how God thinks about things. And human constructs like good and evil, emotions, and desires may not apply to God any more than they do insects.

History of human religions always has gods exactly like us but with "superpowers." But a being capable of creating planets or even the whole universe isn't gonna be anything at all like us. More likely it's our own ego and need to be able to relate to things that has God 'in our image.' A being capable of creating matter just cuz isn't likely to even have a image as any fixed form would limit it to the mundane workings of organic life.

God may not even possess the emotion of love. We might love what God does for us, but that doesn't then mean God itself loves us, or even knows what love is. If God possesses the capacity to love that'd be evident in creation, but the exact opposite seems to be the case. If a being can love, it can exhibit other emotions too and not all of the ones we know of are positive. There's good arguements for a loving deity wouldn't be very good, and a being devoid of emotions would be better.

1 Reply

@HesDeltanCaptain,

Quote:

God may not even possess the emotion of love. We might love what God does for us, but that doesn't then mean God itself loves us, or even knows what love is. If God possesses the capacity to love that'd be evident in creation, but the exact opposite seems to be the case. If a being can love, it can exhibit other emotions too and not all of the ones we know of are positive. There's good arguements for a loving deity wouldn't be very good, and a being devoid of emotions would be better.

I'm sure love is not the only emotion God has. And yes, he is a hard ass. Life here is a meat grinder and God is willing to consider human life expendable in the furtherance of his goals. These things are obvious. Doesn't mean he doesn't exist, just makes me want to know what it it that makes it all worthwhile.

0 Replies

Is it possible to prove the existence of a loving God?

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know