11
   

Is it possible to prove the existence of a loving God?

 
 
werter
 
  1  
Wed 17 Oct, 2012 02:38 pm
@Frank Apisa,
1) Intelligent Design
2) First Cause
werter
 
  1  
Wed 17 Oct, 2012 02:41 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Are you saying that the Source is neither Conscious nor Loving? Or that it must be? I'm a little confused.
0 Replies
 
werter
 
  1  
Wed 17 Oct, 2012 02:42 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I'm not for biblical arguments, there's no proof for the bible, and it has many contradictions.
0 Replies
 
werter
 
  1  
Wed 17 Oct, 2012 02:43 pm
@farmerman,
I'm gonna be honest and I say I'm not 100% sure I know what you're saying but my response to what I think your saying is: There is a lot of evidence for a source, but that isn't my question, I'm asking if anyone knows of proof for a loving god? Whether they believe it or not.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 17 Oct, 2012 02:58 pm
@werter,
Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5138585)
1) Intelligent Design
2) First Cause


Huh????
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 17 Oct, 2012 03:12 pm
@werter,
Yes, there are "a lot of evidence for a source," and it's called science.
0 Replies
 
werter
 
  1  
Wed 17 Oct, 2012 04:13 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Intelligent Design- Order is present in creation, therefore there must be an "orderer." Just take a look at this quote:
"The Earth...its size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter.3 Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.

The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible. The Earth remains this perfect distance from the sun while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 67,000 mph. It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly warmed and cooled every day.

And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet our massive oceans are restrained from spilling over across the continents.4

Water...colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thing can survive without it. Plants, animals and human beings consist mostly of water (about two-thirds of the human body is water). You'll see why the characteristics of water are uniquely suited to life:

It has an unusually high boiling point and freezing point. Water allows us to live in an environment of fluctuating temperature changes, while keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees.

Water is a universal solvent. This property of water means that various chemicals, minerals and nutrients can be carried throughout our bodies and into the smallest blood vessels.5

Water is also chemically neutral. Without affecting the makeup of the substances it carries, water enables food, medicines and minerals to be absorbed and used by the body.

Water has a unique surface tension. Water in plants can therefore flow upward against gravity, bringing life-giving water and nutrients to the top of even the tallest trees.

Water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter.

Ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water.6

The human brain...simultaneously processes an amazing amount of information. Your brain takes in all the colors and objects you see, the temperature around you, the pressure of your feet against the floor, the sounds around you, the dryness of your mouth, even the texture of your keyboard. Your brain holds and processes all your emotions, thoughts and memories. At the same time your brain keeps track of the ongoing functions of your body like your breathing pattern, eyelid movement, hunger and movement of the muscles in your hands.

The human brain processes more than a million messages a second.7 Your brain weighs the importance of all this data, filtering out the relatively unimportant. This screening function is what allows you to focus and operate effectively in your world. The brain functions differently than other organs. There is an intelligence to it, the ability to reason, to produce feelings, to dream and plan, to take action, and relate to other people.

The eye...can distinguish among seven million colors. It has automatic focusing and handles an astounding 1.5 million messages -- simultaneously.8 Evolution focuses on mutations and changes from and within existing organisms. Yet evolution alone does not fully explain the initial source of the eye or the brain -- the start of living organisms from nonliving matter."

First Cause: Everything in the Universe has a cause, all the way back to the big bang, so what caused it? Do deny it has a cause is to go against the greatest fundamental of science, that a thing can be studied for order, and a cause.
rosborne979
 
  1  
Wed 17 Oct, 2012 04:22 pm
@werter,
werter wrote:

Intelligent Design- Order is present in creation, therefore there must be an "orderer." Just take a look at this quote:
"The Earth...its size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter.3 Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.

That whole line of reasoning is completely invalid.

You can't look at an environment and claim that it's "perfect" just because it supports the life that evolved to match it.

And the same thing applies to the Universe itself, you can't claim that the Universe is "perfect" for the things in it when the things in it came to be through processes which were only available by virtue of these conditions.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 17 Oct, 2012 04:22 pm
@werter,
Quote:
Intelligent Design- Order is present in creation, therefore there must be an "orderer." Just take a look at this quote:
"The Earth...its size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter.3 Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.

The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible. The Earth remains this perfect distance from the sun while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 67,000 mph. It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly warmed and cooled every day.

And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet our massive oceans are restrained from spilling over across the continents.4

Water...colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thing can survive without it. Plants, animals and human beings consist mostly of water (about two-thirds of the human body is water). You'll see why the characteristics of water are uniquely suited to life:

It has an unusually high boiling point and freezing point. Water allows us to live in an environment of fluctuating temperature changes, while keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees.

Water is a universal solvent. This property of water means that various chemicals, minerals and nutrients can be carried throughout our bodies and into the smallest blood vessels.5

Water is also chemically neutral. Without affecting the makeup of the substances it carries, water enables food, medicines and minerals to be absorbed and used by the body.

Water has a unique surface tension. Water in plants can therefore flow upward against gravity, bringing life-giving water and nutrients to the top of even the tallest trees.

Water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter.

Ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water.6

The human brain...simultaneously processes an amazing amount of information. Your brain takes in all the colors and objects you see, the temperature around you, the pressure of your feet against the floor, the sounds around you, the dryness of your mouth, even the texture of your keyboard. Your brain holds and processes all your emotions, thoughts and memories. At the same time your brain keeps track of the ongoing functions of your body like your breathing pattern, eyelid movement, hunger and movement of the muscles in your hands.

The human brain processes more than a million messages a second.7 Your brain weighs the importance of all this data, filtering out the relatively unimportant. This screening function is what allows you to focus and operate effectively in your world. The brain functions differently than other organs. There is an intelligence to it, the ability to reason, to produce feelings, to dream and plan, to take action, and relate to other people.

The eye...can distinguish among seven million colors. It has automatic focusing and handles an astounding 1.5 million messages -- simultaneously.8 Evolution focuses on mutations and changes from and within existing organisms. Yet evolution alone does not fully explain the initial source of the eye or the brain -- the start of living organisms from nonliving matter."

First Cause: Everything in the Universe has a cause, all the way back to the big bang, so what caused it? Do deny it has a cause is to go against the greatest fundamental of science, that a thing can be studied for order, and a cause.


I'm going to assume you are just kidding here.

If you think anything you have said in this exposition "proves" the existence of a god (of any kind)...you are sadly mistaken.
rosborne979
 
  1  
Wed 17 Oct, 2012 04:30 pm
@werter,
werter wrote:
First Cause: Everything in the Universe has a cause, all the way back to the big bang, so what caused it? Do deny it has a cause is to go against the greatest fundamental of science, that a thing can be studied for order, and a cause.
The Big Bang is a completely unique event. So it is not unreasonable to speculate that it may have unique properties unlike anything else in the Universe. Especially when any "cause" of the BB would likely be outside of the Universe and therefor completely unrelated to the physical laws within the Universe.

The two basic assumptions you have made with regard to "proofs" for creator or "first cause" are completely without substance.

You need to rethink your basic assumptions before proceeding on to any further assumptions or it's all just elephants on a flying turtle's back after that.
werter
 
  1  
Wed 17 Oct, 2012 04:40 pm
@rosborne979,
Okay, I never said the Universe was perfect, however, to deny there is order in the Universe is contradictory. There is no true random occurance in the Universe.
werter
 
  1  
Wed 17 Oct, 2012 04:41 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Okay, then prove a God does not exist? Where did the Universe come from? What of the belief that God IS the Universe? That God WAS the Big Bang?
werter
 
  1  
Wed 17 Oct, 2012 04:42 pm
@rosborne979,
If that's not proof, then give me some proof of that? Just saying it has no substance isn't an argument.
rosborne979
 
  1  
Wed 17 Oct, 2012 04:50 pm
@werter,
werter wrote:

Okay, I never said the Universe was perfect, however, to deny there is order in the Universe is contradictory.

So what if there's order in the universe, what would that prove. Do you think that just because a planet takes the shape of a sphere when it forms that something other than physics made it do that?

Is there some type of order in the universe which you know of which doesn't form naturally?

werter wrote:
There is no true random occurance in the Universe.
How do you figure that. Do you mean that philosophically or empirically?
rosborne979
 
  1  
Wed 17 Oct, 2012 04:53 pm
@werter,
werter wrote:

If that's not proof, then give me some proof of that? Just saying it has no substance isn't an argument.
I gave you examples of why the arguments you have presented are invalid assumptions. Your arguments are nothing new, they are copy/pasted arguments which have been refuted many many times over the last hundred years. And I explained (however briefly) exactly why they are invalid. What part of the explanation do you have questions about?
werter
 
  1  
Wed 17 Oct, 2012 04:55 pm
@rosborne979,
"Something other than physics made it do that."

I'm saying physics made it do that, but that physics has order, it has laws that can be studied and tested. This implies an orderer, someone or something that GAVE that order.

And I figure that literally. Everything in the Universe has a cause, or rather, there is nothing without a cause.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 17 Oct, 2012 05:02 pm
@werter,
Quote:
Okay, then prove a God does not exist?


Why would I do that. I have no idea if a god exists or not. One might; several might; many might; none might.

I do not know.

But you are saying you can prove one exists...and I have not seen the "proof."

I suspect I won't.

Quote:
Where did the Universe come from?


Beats the hell out of me. If you are saying it came from a god...where did the god come from?


Quote:
What of the belief that God IS the Universe?


Interesting guess. What of it?


Quote:
That God WAS the Big Bang?


Interesting guess. Maybe...maybe not. I do not know.

Do you?
werter
 
  1  
Wed 17 Oct, 2012 05:02 pm
@rosborne979,
You saying that the big bang could have been caused by something outside the Universe is akin to the definition of God. "God is transcendent, that is, outside the Universe." How would you define energy? It has always existed? Been around since the beginning of time? Makes up all things? Many people say the same thing about God. You see, Science and Religion are saying the exact same things, just using different words. However, I would like to make it known that I am in no way a religious person, as you may think I am, based on my arguments. However, to deny the existence of a creator is foolish, as is blindly following any sort of doctrine, such as with Religions. Or Science.
werter
 
  1  
Wed 17 Oct, 2012 05:05 pm
@Frank Apisa,
You actually make a great point here. How can you know? I'm not gonna say the usual answer of "oh its in the bible blah blah blah," but I will ask you this. Do you believe in an afterlife of any kind?
farmerman
 
  1  
Wed 17 Oct, 2012 07:15 pm
@werter,
Those arguments are basically circular.
I am confident enough to assert that we can evidence that life has risen without a Creator involved.

1 The rock strata show a random and non "orderly" appearance from most simple through tmore complex. These occurences are clearly separated by measurble time. There is no sense of order why dinosaurs appeared before mammals or birds unless these animals are somehow descendent rather than ""Created", Dont wann forget about plants also. Single celled, through photosynthesists, from "spores" to "naked seeds" to "seeded plants" etc.
2. We can see how organism developed through the fossil record and we cansee intermediate and transitional forms that clearly display linked
descendency.

3 we see natural sellection happening in the wild to all forms of life. We are able to watch it happen without any Creative help . (Unless you ascribe climate and geologic changes as a "Tool" of a creator).

4 Weve managed to "decrypt" the ascendnace of life forms by predicting where and in what geologic time the transitional forms may have been deposited. And we can do this by knowing that the planet has torn itself up and these chunk are moving about like leaves on a pond.

5 Life has been a complete jumble of mostly failed descendents. We see a fossil record that is replete with all sorts of evolutionary non-adaptd "losers" 99.999% of all species that ever lived are extinct. Pretty bad track record for an "Orderer". Imperfection is the way of evolution, not design. Evolution isnt a tool of a creator, most all of the ID and Creator happy people agree.

6 Weve been able to , with the help of guys like DArwin and Craig Venter (and many others) develop a synthesis of how change occurs, how species arise and what internal mechanisms are involved within individuals in a species.



There are some folks who, unable to deny evidence any longer, now profess a belief in theistic "fiddling" or theistic evolution. That too is circular and a cop out because they are only trying to force fit evidence into a default mechanism. Sometimes life has taken weird and unpredictabe turns that can only be viewed in their summary stories. A creator has not left any tracks of competent work , in fact the presence of a creatoris totally foreign to how life showed up on our planet.
0 Replies
 
 

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