I believe....

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There are many things in the universe that are more powerful than me, many of which I have great respect for.

I have awe for many of those more powerful things, and also for many things that are less powerful than me. I also have great respect for many things that are less powerful than me.

A definition of "revere" is "to regard with respect, tinged with awe". I certainly have that.

A definition of "worship" is "The feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity"

Adoration....to regard with the utmost esteem, love, and respect; honor Idolize....To regard with blind admiration or devotion.

I certainly don't idolize these things. Do I "love" them? Well, by some definition I love some of these things, because of the benefits they provide to the universe, as a whole, or down to me in particular.

I respect them, as to not do so, to treat the power lightly,and not carefully could cause harm.

Do I adore them in the complete definition? No.

Do they expect to be adored? No.

Do these things care if I respect and revere them? No.

Is fear sometimes misplaced respect because I may not understand how something works, or can't predict when/how something will act? Yeah, I think so.

Does the desire to better understand some things sometimes cause us to anthropomorphize them so we can put them on a level we can better understand? Yes, sure. It can put them on a lesser level than they are, or a higher level.

I believe in energy, and that I am currently part of that energy. I was part of that energy before this body came into existance, and I'll be part of that energy while I decompose, and form into something else.

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@chai2,

Will your consciousness survive intact ?

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@OmSigDAVID,

You mean that after my body turns into cells in the digestive tract of a worm, then worm castings, then part of the soil, and on and on until part of me is a bit of plastic in the handle of a pair of scissors, another part making up part of a cockroaches carapace and so on, will there is a distinct part that is my consciousness intact somewhere?

Who knows.

Why, is that important?

It either is, or isn't, and knowing or not doesn't change it.

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@chai2,

chai2 wrote:

You mean that after my body turns into cells in the digestive tract of a worm, then worm castings, then part of the soil, and on and on until part of me is a bit of plastic in the handle of a pair of scissors, another part making up part of a cockroaches carapace and so on, will there is a distinct part that is my consciousness intact somewhere?

No. Not, after: before that.
U 'll be out of your human body long b4 any of those things can happen.

chai2 wrote:

Who knows.

The folks of the International Association of Near Death Studies do www.IANDS.org of whom I am one.

chai2 wrote:

Why, is that important?

CONSCIOUSNESS???
I guess that 's important.

chai2 wrote:

It either is, or isn't, and knowing or not doesn't change it.

Its not the idea to CHANGE it, necessarily.
Like u r in A2K now, but u r not trying to CHANGE it.

Its more like enjoying its benefits.

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I don't know that consciousness is that important. Why do you think it is?

When I had to be knocked out for a often done medical procedure, one instant I was aware of everything around me, then, in the next instant, I was aware again, but an amount of time had passed. I knew nothing of the interval.

What if I'd died during that time? It would have been like it was during that interval, and I'd never know it. If I died, was this consciousness I had possessed moments before supposed to have become activated and realized it was no longer in a living body?

I feel I need to add into all this that I don't consider myself an atheist.
I think the respect and reverence I have toward this energy is one I would have for a creator. I dont fear any of it in what I think of as an unreasonable way. Not like I'm going to be punished if I behave incorrectly, but need to honor and respect the power of many things, and fear the consequences if I don't treat it with the respect it's owed.

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@chai2,

chai2 wrote:

Does the desire to better understand some things sometimes cause us to anthropomorphize them so we can put them on a level we can better understand? Yes, sure. It can put them on a lesser level than they are, or a higher level.

I believe in energy, and that I am currently part of that energy. I was part of that energy before this body came into existance, and I'll be part of that energy while I decompose, and form into something else.

Totally and completely agree with those two paragraphs. Cf. Rene Dubos' A God Within as well as Meistar Eckhard's famous dictum, "The eye with which I see God is the same eye with which God sees me." Good thread, chai.

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@Lustig Andrei,

I remember Rene dubos but I have no idea if I would agree with him now.

Off hand, I'm guessing not.

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@OmSigDAVID,

OmSigDAVID wrote:

chai2 wrote:
It either is, or isn't, and knowing or not doesn't change it.
Its not the idea to CHANGE it, necessarily.
Like u r in A2K now, but u r not trying to CHANGE it.

Its more like enjoying its benefits.

First...Thanks Andy

David, it's not the idea of changing it. Actually it's the opposite. Regardless of whether one believes or knows something or not, whatever is, is.

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@chai2,

Quote:

Does the desire to better understand some things sometimes cause us to anthropomorphize them so we can put them on a level we can better understand?

Yes. Also, everything we can understand has to fit a certain format. It has to relate to whatever we base our understanding on, which means that we cannot easily escape to contrast between the one understanding and what he understands about. This contrast shapes most of, if not all of, our understanding.

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@chai2,

chai2 wrote:

I don't know that consciousness is that important.
Why do you think it is?

Consciousness = existence, yes ?
It is the most fundamental value.

Will u agree that, worldwide, the death penalty is deemed
to be the most severe, the most extreme penalty ??

chai2 wrote:

When I had to be knocked out for a often done medical procedure, one instant I was aware of everything around me,
then, in the next instant, I was aware again, but an amount of time had passed. I knew nothing of the interval.

What if I'd died during that time? It would have been like it was during that interval, and I'd never know it.

Not necessarily; people 's experiences have been inconsistent on that point.
In my case, I was told that I died 2ice during abdominal surgery in 2005,
but I have no memory thereof, tho I have clear memories
of several out-of-body experiences, most of which were while
I was actively conversing with other people,
in questions n answers on-the-job (i.e., not having fallen asleep, dreaming).
Upon the death of the human body, the consciousness that used it
leaves that body, as he does during out-of-body experiences.
When a young lobster leaves his exoskeleton behind and walks away
in his new soft, shell (molting off the old one) it is just
a matter of abandonment. "Death" = abandonment of the old shell.
If your radio eventually wears out & does not work any more,
that does not mean that there is anything rong with the ambient radio waves.

I had a shoe emergency in Reno a few nites ago.
After one of my shoes abruptly became no longer useable,
I took a hotel shuttle to a shoe store, but I did not stop walking.

chai2 wrote:

If I died, was this consciousness I had possessed moments before supposed to have become activated
and realized it was no longer in a living body?

Yes; the consciousness feels liberated.
If he or she MUST re-enter the human body,
that has been compared to "being put back in jail" or forced into a mayonaise jar.

chai2 wrote:

I feel I need to add into all this that I don't consider myself an atheist.

That 's a good thing. We 've had some complaints from ex-atheists who have been revived.

chai2 wrote:

I think the respect and reverence I have toward this energy is one I would have for a creator.
I dont fear any of it

That 's a good thing. Fear is a dirty word.
Fear can bring bad luck.
I don't recommend fear.

David

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

OmSigDAVID wrote:

chai2 wrote:
I don't know that consciousness is that important.
Why do you think it is?
Consciousness = existence, yes ?
It is the most fundamental value.

Will u agree that, worldwide, the death penalty is deemed
to be the most severe, the most extreme penalty ??

Well no, I wouldn't agree with that. I can think of a lot worse things.

After you're dead, being put to death is irrelevant.
If your consciousness continues, what does it matter if you're dead or not? If your consciousness doesn't continue, what does it matter if you're dead, and how that came to be?

I think many people think of the death penalty merely as a prelude to the tortures of the damned they are sure that person is going to get after they are dead.

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@chai2,

Quote:

I believe....

As you know, Chai, I have a problem with the use of the word “believe.” It means so many different things to people, I have difficulty understanding what is meant when it is used. That is the case here.

How do you mean that “believe”, Chai?

Do you mean it the way a person saying, “I believe there are no gods” means it?

Do you mean it the way a person saying, “I believe the GIANTS will repeat as World Champions this year” means it?

Do you mean it the way a person saying, “I believe I’ll have another Heineken” means it?

Do you mean it the way a person saying, “I don’t believe Obama won that election: means it?

Can you put the notion, “I believe there are many things in the universe that are more powerful than me, many of which I have great respect for” into a sentence that does not use the word “believe”…so I get a better idea of what you mean?

2 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

You can replace the word "believe" with texting stuff like "IMO", Frank, or even "IMHO" or anything else. To me, at least, it still means the same thing. Don't make it any more complicated than is necesary.

2 Replies

@Lustig Andrei,

does frank believe that you exist, andy?

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@chai2,

I believe the whole universe is just a hologram.

0 Replies

@Lustig Andrei,

Quote:

You can replace the word "believe" with texting stuff like "IMO", Frank, or even "IMHO" or anything else. To me, at least, it still means the same thing. Don't make it any more complicated than is necesary.

I personally happen to think it is a LOT more complicated than most people think is necessary...which is the reason I mention this so often. Frankly, I do not think the examples I gave are talking about the same kind of "believing"...and I think the people making those kinds of statements would be better off actually saying what they mean rather than what they think the use of the word "believe" means in their comments.

It truly is complicated, Lustig.

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

Quote:
I believe....

Can you put the notion, “I believe there are many things in the universe that are more powerful than me, many of which I have great respect for” into a sentence that does not use the word “believe”…so I get a better idea of what you mean?

In the above I would replace it with the word "know", and it would be perfectly true.

Not complicated at all.

How do I "know" the above?

Because my body is fragile, my mind is not as intelligent as others, there are forces within and without that can accomplish, form, destroy, etc things I can't.

1 Reply

@chai2,

I asked, "Can you put the notion, 'I believe there are many things in the universe that are more powerful than me, many of which I have great respect for' into a sentence that does not use the word “believe”…so I get a better idea of what you mean?

You replied,

Quote:

In the above I would replace it with the word "know", and it would be perfectly true.

Not complicated at all.

How do I "know" the above?

Because my body is fragile, my mind is not as intelligent as others, there are forces within and without that can accomplish, form, destroy, etc things I can't.

I appreciate your responding to my question...and I understand what you are saying.

But there is this to consider:

Perhaps there is nothing and no one less fragile or more intelligent or more powerful than you. In fact, perhaps there is nothing except you...with all this other stuff being an illusion you create to make it seem you are not alone.

It is at least possible. The non-dualists among us might argue a variation of that and defend it with vigor.

It seems to me (I may be wrong) that in most comments like the one I asked you about, the word "believe" could more logically be replaced by "guess" or "estimate" "suppose" "presume" or something like those.

I truly do not think "know" works, considering all we do NOT know about the actual REALITY of existence.

Respectfully, Chai, I think it is very complicated.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Would it be helpful,Frank, if, in adopting Chai's basic statement, I substituted the word "understand" for the word "know"? I think that's what a Budhist would do. (I must admit that quibbling over semantics gets awfully tiresome to me after a while. One reason why I don't participate much in the so-called philosophy threads.)

2 Replies

@Lustig Andrei,

Yes, but your distinction between "know" and "understand" is no quibble.

1 Reply

I believe....

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