12
   

What is "nothing"

 
 
dalehileman
 
  0  
Reply Mon 25 Jun, 2012 12:41 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Quote:
"Nothing" might well just be a statement on which to an extent one refers to what was not rendered and yet is possible,
One of the later theories, not mine, incidentally makes it impossible. As the Big Crunch comes to a close the tiny spot becomes more and more massive and less and less stable until POOF it pops out of existence but because in that state if not infinitely massive it is infinitely unstable, ergo the next Big Bang

You respond, “But you’ve just admitted nothingness to be possible”

“No I haven’t,” I reply, “if its duration is zero"

Quote:
like no pie in the fridge……….if taken at absolute lengths, once no absolute degree of liberty…..beyond the program competence…... something possible as existing in it (the program)...if one try s to refer beyon.it …….just means that it doesn't refer !
Sorry Fil but us typical incompetents might benefit from wording within our competence
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Jun, 2012 01:07 pm
@dalehileman,
dalehileman wrote:

Quote:
...my envisioning of simultaneity goes a bit like programs about virtual spaces work..
Oops Fil, did you mean “about how virtual spaces work”

But forgive me, what’s a virtual space

Quote:
.its about the difference between potential mapping and actual mapping..
Interesting you should so remark; as an erstwhile amateur cartographer myself I was of course actual. I don’t know what’s meant by potential mapping unless it’s thinking about starting another map

Quote:
.whatever is rendered doesn't entail all that it is possible, although all that it is possible is right there in the program to be rendered when and if you need it…
Thou mightest have to elaborate, using terms familiar to the Average Clod (me)

Quote:
and by "you" I mean anything not any sort of agent pulling the strings..
Then you suppose by “you” you mean not I but a kind of God, the implication being that She reads all our postings

Quote:
.all possible states of a program entail all possible "agency", provided a starting set state is acquired by the program's engine itself, from there what follows is naturally compelled to follow...
Then are you suggesting some sort of beginning for it all


1- If you mean a virtual space is an actual virtual space we agree...space emerging out of a bunch of mathematical relations in a program...

2- potential mapping refers to all space axial combinations which can possibly be rendered by a program...the expression is in fact problematic once you need at least a two dimensional binary string in space to the program itself where further axial strings can be described...meaning apparently some sort of space must exist a priori...

3- let me give you the most basic example : in a calculator the number 8 is composed of 7 small strings segments aligned in the shape of an 8...if the number of maximum digits in it is 10, 10 eights account all the potential space being occupied...yet you don't need the entire space being occupied any time you make a calculus operation...in programming you set a potential area as the maximum number of slots to be used by any other operator in it, say a bot, but the true amount of space being calculated for the bot usage needs not be the entire web but only that amount in which he will travel...

4- "you" needs not agency, "you" is a string itself in a system unfolding from initial conditions...initial conditions are not about the program existing start, but about on how the program starts to run from a given reset sequence...the program may be eternal...equally the program might well run all potential initial conditions it can run over time...

...hope that was of some help...
dalehileman
 
  0  
Reply Mon 25 Jun, 2012 01:53 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Code:1- If you mean a virtual space is an actual virtual space we agree…
Yes, no, Fil, pherhaps I didn’t make myself cleare. I was merely asking, “What is a virtual space"

Quote:
space emerging out of a bunch of mathematical relations in a program...
Sorry Fil but I don’t have the foggiest notion how a space emerges from a program

Quote:
2...meaning apparently some sort of space must exist a priori...
Does that mean you’ve somehow proven the impossibility of nothingness

Quote:
3-………. in a calculator the number 8 is composed of 7 small strings segments aligned in the shape of an 8
Forgive me Fil, I’m sure what you’re trying to convey is most profound, but to the Average Clod (me) it’s utter nonsense

Quote:
4- "you" needs not agency, "you" is a string itself in a system unfolding from initial conditions…i……….equally the program might well run all potential initial conditions it can run over time...

...hope that was of some help...
Well Fil thanks for trying. Maybe someone else will step in to translate
Fil Albuquerque
 
  2  
Reply Mon 25 Jun, 2012 02:00 pm
@dalehileman,
My reply is scientifically correct if you don't grasp its language its not my problem...maybe you ought to make some reading.

Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Jun, 2012 02:40 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Quote:
VECTOR GRAPHICS

Vector graphics is the use of geometrical primitives such as points, lines, curves, and shapes or polygon(s), which are all based on mathematical expressions, to represent images in computer graphics. "Vector", in this context, implies more than a straight line.

Vector graphics is based on images made up of vectors (also called paths, or strokes) which lead through locations called control points. Each of these points has a definite position on the x and y axes of the work plan. Each point, as well, is a variety of database, including the location of the point in the work space and the direction of the vector (which is what defines the direction of the track). Each track can be assigned a color, a shape, a thickness and also a fill. This does not affect the size of the files in a substantial way because all information resides in the structure; it describes how to draw the vector.

There are instances when working with vector tools and formats is the best practice, and instances when working with raster tools and formats is the best practice. There are times when both formats come together. An understanding of the advantages and limitations of each technology and the relationship between them is most likely to result in efficient and effective use of tools.


Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vector_graphics

Quote:
Video game bot
In video games, a bot is a type of weak AI expert system software which for each instance of the program controls a player in deathmatch, team deathmatch and/or cooperative human player, most prominently in the first-person shooters (FPSs). Computer-controlled bots may play against other bots and/or human players in unison, either over the Internet, on a LAN or in a local session.[1] Features and intelligence of bots may vary greatly, especially with community created content. Advanced bots feature machine learning for dynamic learning of patterns of the opponent as well as dynamic learning of previously unknown maps – whereas more trivial bots may rely completely on lists of waypoints created for each map by the developer, limiting the bot to play only maps with said waypoints. Using bots is incidentally against the rules of all of the current main Massively multiplayer online role-playing games (MMORPGs).


Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_bot
0 Replies
 
dalehileman
 
  0  
Reply Mon 25 Jun, 2012 03:02 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Quote:
...maybe you ought to make some reading.
Alas, alack
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jun, 2012 04:02 am
@dalehileman,
I very much think sophistry can be of some use here, given the shallow depth of the all problem...you see, that nothing is just nothing, perfectly summarizes my thinking on the matter... Very Happy
dalehileman
 
  0  
Reply Wed 27 Jun, 2012 11:51 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Sophistry implies conscious intent

http://onelook.com/?w=sophistry&ls=a

…...so as an erstwhile writer I don’t think it’s quite the right word

Of course some use the term “nothing" referring to empty pace, a void (JL #346), and so what most of us are discussing I believe might be labeled “absolute” nothingness which of course implies the absence also of space

The basic question seems to revolve around whether nothingness is even possible and if so whether something could have popped out of it

However that we’re alone in the last dozen posts suggests we might not be adding nor clarifying much
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jun, 2012 12:36 pm
@dalehileman,
dalehileman wrote:

Sophistry implies conscious intent

http://onelook.com/?w=sophistry&ls=a

…...so as an erstwhile writer I don’t think it’s quite the right word

Of course some use the term “nothing" referring to empty pace, a void (JL #346), and so what most of us are discussing I believe might be labeled “absolute” nothingness which of course implies the absence also of space

The basic question seems to revolve around whether nothingness is even possible and if so whether something could have popped out of it

However that we’re alone in the last dozen posts suggests we might not be adding nor clarifying much



I personally am totally convinced nothingness is not possible, as, I don't think I need to ad anything to it (the conversation about nothingness)...I also don't have any intention on clarifying a matter which to me is perfectly clear...what people might think upon that is their own right and business and I respect that !
dalehileman
 
  0  
Reply Thu 28 Jun, 2012 10:12 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Quote:
I personally am totally convinced nothingness is not possible
….while I suspect—at risk of repetition--the entire problem is semantic. Those maintaining that something popped out of nothing maintain that nothingness must be a possible state; while the skeptics point out that because it has no qualities it can’t be called a state

But I’m still intrigued about the concept
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Jun, 2012 11:12 am
@dalehileman,
dalehileman wrote:

Quote:
I personally am totally convinced nothingness is not possible
….while I suspect—at risk of repetition--the entire problem is semantic. Those maintaining that something popped out of nothing maintain that nothingness must be a possible state; while the skeptics point out that because it has no qualities it can’t be called a state

But I’m still intrigued about the concept


oh yeah ? just stop for a sec and mind on the word calmly... no thing ! It is referring already to thingness...thus a self defeating argument ! But what no in there ? proper Nothingness intends that you cant even frame thingness...and yet negation in order to negate requires, imply s, a priori somethingness, so it cant ever be total complete negation...its like negation negating negation itself...an absurd !
dalehileman
 
  0  
Reply Thu 28 Jun, 2012 12:08 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Quote:
... no thing ! It is referring already to thingness...
The apparent contradiction however lies more in language than logic or truth

Quote:
Nothingness intends that you cant even frame thingness...
How can nothingness intend anything

Help somebody, I seem to be missing the critical point

Quote:
...and yet negation in order to negate requires, imply s, a priori somethingness, so it cant ever be total complete negation...i
Again it seems a language thing. I can easily posit total, complete negation, no Universe, no space, in spite of my somethingness. In fact nothingness seems a much more logical and consistent “state" of things since it’s so difficult to account for somethingness, much less our place in it

And there’s no implied criticism Fil, I’m sure your position is most valid
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Jun, 2012 01:40 pm
@dalehileman,
Quote:
Nothingness intends (to mean) that you cant even frame thingness...
(I shortened or short cut it)

oooh dear... I can re frame it...in nothingness it is intended...that you couldn't even frame any sort of thingness...you can't negate what you don't have ! Yes my position is not just valid but the only valid position...
dalehileman
 
  0  
Reply Thu 28 Jun, 2012 03:14 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil it appears we shall have to agree to disagree although I’m still not sure just what it is we’re disagreeing about
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Jun, 2012 04:03 pm
@dalehileman,
Well I did what I could to clarify my position I am sure you did your best to convey your own idea on the matter...no lack of trying, all good, we agree to disagree.
0 Replies
 
amorea
 
  0  
Reply Fri 29 Jun, 2012 05:14 pm
@Nothingsomething,
what I find fascinating that from the so called nothing..NO THING comes something at the event horizon point. figure that one out!
Just like there are no empty space. If there is a sapce and can contain anything like planets etc it has dimension..that is something, but not material we humans usually think of.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Jun, 2012 03:50 am
@amorea,
amorea wrote:

what I find fascinating that from the so called nothing..NO THING comes something at the event horizon point. figure that one out!
Just like there are no empty space. If there is a sapce and can contain anything like planets etc it has dimension..that is something, but not material we humans usually think of.

...for most people there is a problem in making a distinction between substance and matter...there can be a distinction to my view...substance is somehow a more abstract approach to thingness...well, while space is definitely something substantial as you pointed out it is no matter...lacking of philosophical education as proven a continuous problem for physicists making any sense or having any coherence in their statements...often the problem is not in the modelling, even if incomplete, but on how such modelling is being interpreted and conveyed by the so called authority's...
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2012 12:22 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
0 Replies
 
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2012 10:13 am
@Nothingsomething,
Giving it a name doesn’t make it to somehow come to be

Quote:
It kind of does because if it was actually nothing it would mean that it was nonexistent and so it wouldn't be there to name.
Yes, no, Not, I think we have a semantic issue here. If it’s nothing then it’s not there

Or perhaps without realizing it you’re thinking of nothing as a kind of void, an empty space, but of course that’s contradictory since obviously space is something

Quote:
...lacking of philosophical education as proven a continuous problem for physicists
Fil that’s often occurred to me and it’s definitely an impediment if for no other reason than it suppresses the intuition
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2012 04:38 pm
@dalehileman,
Good points. I does seem to me that lack of knowledge of physics is a problem for philosophers--as well as lack of philosophy being a problem for physicists.
It also seems that at a naive level of consciousness (my level) "nothing" is the "absence" of "something". And perhaps "some-thing" is the absense of something else.
 

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