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Are lies and misconceptions the basis of Christianity?

 
 
Terry
 
Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2004 02:32 am
On another thread, Caprice said, "I'd like to see you explain how lies and misconceptions are the basis of these religions." (see Why do atheists and agnostics frequent this forum???)

I'd like to start by asking you to read an essay by Thomas Paine:

Examination of the Prophecies

Examination of the Prophecies Part 2

Look them up for yourself. Now do you still think that the gospel writers were truthful?

Or would you like to discuss how pagan beliefs were incorporated into Christianity, history of religions, ecumenical councils, sins of Jesus, anti-Jewish rants of Muhammed, Dead Sea Scrolls, and how various denominations can differ so greatly in their "interpretations" of the Bible?
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satt fs
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2004 02:36 am
Human truth and deep understanding of humanity are the basis of religions. Even though many parts of some religions (e.g., buddhism) are sheer fictions, those teachings have heavy significance for the human life.
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caprice
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2004 02:43 am
That's a lot of reading! And I have the attention span of a gnat! *L* Well the real reason is it's late and I have to get to bed. So we'll have to continue this discourse another time.

One thing I did read (and only one part of one link of a loooong page) took a literal interpretation. Now I am not even in the remotest sense a bible expert but I think a lot of items in the Bible are likely symbolic. Someone using a literal interpretation as a defense of their reasonings doesn't convince me.
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Terry
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2004 02:50 am
caprice wrote:
Someone using a literal interpretation as a defense of their reasonings doesn't convince me.


And those who took verses completely out of context or changed the wording and claimed that they were "prophecies" doesn't convince me.

If you can interpret the Bible to mean whatever you think it ought to say, people would come up with all kinds of religions based on "interpreting" selected passages and ignoring the rest. And that's just what happened.

Why do you suppose that God did not have someone write down exactly what he meant so that we could have avoided all of the religious wars?
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Terry
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2004 02:53 am
satt_focusable wrote:
Human truth and deep understanding of humanity are the basis of religions. Even though many parts of some religions (e.g., buddhism) are sheer fictions, those teachings have heavy significance for the human life.


I agree, as long as people understand that the fictions are symbolic and not to be taken seriously. But there are lots of people in the US who believe that the Bible is the literal and inerrant Word of God and try to legally impose their own interpretation on everybody else.
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2004 03:04 am
Great links Terry, thanks
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2004 03:06 am
Terry, have you read Richard Dawkins' essay Viruses of the mind? Among other things, it makes a convincing case that believing nonsense and engaging in pointless but excruciating tasks is essential to religious communities. It signals commitment to the religion itself, as opposed to common sense, some of which can be found in any religion. Here is my favorite excerpt.

In 'Viruses of the mind', Richard Dawkins wrote:
While I was writing this, the Guardian (July 29, 1991) fortuitously carried a beautiful example. It came in an interview with a rabbi undertaking the bizarre task of vetting the kosher-purity of food products right back to the ultimate origins of their minutest ingredients. He was currently agonizing over whether to go all the way to China to scrutinize the menthol that goes into cough sweets. ``Have you ever tried checking Chinese menthol... it was extremely difficult, especially since the first letter we sent received the reply in best Chinese English, `The product contains no kosher'... China has only recently started opening up to kosher investigators. The menthol should be OK, but you can never be absolutely sure unless you visit.'' These kosher investigators run a telephone hot-line on which up-to-the-minute red-alerts of suspicion are recorded against chocolate bars and cod-liver oil. The rabbi sighs that the green-inspired trend away from artificial colors and flavors ``makes life miserable in the kosher field because you have to follow all these things back.'' When the interviewer asks him why he bothers with this obviously pointless exercise, he makes it very clear that the point is precisely that there is no point:

"That most of the Kashrut laws are divine ordinances without reason given is 100 per cent the point. It is very easy not to murder people. Very easy. It is a little bit harder not to steal because one is tempted occasionally. So that is no great proof that I believe in God or am fulfilling His will. But, if He tells me not to have a cup of coffee with milk in it with my mincemeat and peaces at lunchtime, that is a test. The only reason I am doing that is because I have been told to so do. It is something difficult."

Helena Cronin has suggested to me that there may be an analogy here to Zahavi's handicap theory of sexual selection and the evolution of signals (Zahavi, 1975). Long unfashionable, even ridiculed (Dawkins, 1976), Zahavi's theory has recently been cleverly rehabilitated (Grafen, 1990 a, b) and is now taken seriously by evolutionary biologists (Dawkins, 1989). Zahavi suggests that peacocks, for instance, evolve their absurdly burdensome fans with their ridiculously conspicuous (to predators) colors, precisely because they are burdensome and dangerous, and therefore impressive to females. The peacock is, in effect, saying: ``Look how fit and strong I must be, since I can afford to carry around this preposterous tail.''

[...]

And now to the point. Is it possible that some religious doctrines are favored not in spite of being ridiculous but precisely because they are ridiculous? Any wimp in religion could believe that bread symbolically represents the body of Christ, but it takes a real, red-blooded Catholic to believe something as daft as the transubstantiation. If you believe that, you can believe anything, and (witness the story of Doubting Thomas) these people are trained to see that as a virtue.


(Some punctuation added to substitute for formatting that got lost in the copying and pasting.)
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Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2004 03:23 am
I don't know if outright lies are part of Christianity, but I'm certainly of the opinion that the hierachies of the various churches would not hesitate to lie if it meant protecting their positions (and have done so on many occasions).
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2004 05:09 am
Interesting....reading (sophisticated way to say "bookmark"...lol)
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2004 05:36 am
The Paine pieces are interesting, as is the excerpt posted by Thomas. However, there is altogether an elitist view of religion which emerges. The ordinary communicant cares little or nothing for the the wrongs or rights of dogma, simply whether or not he or she will have any "stars in their crown." They hold their beliefs unexamined, and prefer that you not examine those beliefs, either. What i am suggesting is, the great majority of the devout do know or care whether or not the dogma to which they adhere makes any logical sense, and will resent any effort to hold what they believe up to a rigorous examination.
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Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2004 05:45 am
Quote:
They hold their beliefs unexamined, and prefer that you not examine those beliefs, either


Setanta- Agree. When I have had discussions with the religious, when a point is brought up that cannot be deemed realistic by logic or reason, the characteristic retort is that there are certain things that must be taken as true by "faith".
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2004 05:48 am
Thanks for the links, Terry.

Here are a couple more you might like to check out:




http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_lippard/fabulous-prophecies.html


http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/proph/long.html
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2004 06:32 am
need to review these more closely (howsat deb?)
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Ceili
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2004 11:17 am
Good point Set. You just described my dad. He believes, has faith and that is good enough for him.
We never discuss religion anymore, logically he can't win and I'm lacking a whole lotta faith.

Thomas, while I knew Kosher diets were fairly labour intensive I had no idea they went to such lengths, very interesting article - on many levels.
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husker
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2004 11:32 am
Did you read his " PRIVATE THOUGHTS ON A FUTURE STATE" ?
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2004 12:02 pm
Thanks also to Thomas and Frank for the interesting links. Boy, you infidels sure do take your research seriously. :wink: I wonder how many Christians have honestly matched your studies. Idea
A couple of items in Frank's link struck me so funny I thought they were worth separating:

66-Jeremiah predicts that humans will never again live in Hazor, but will be replaced by dragons. But people still live there and dragons have never been seen. 49:33 Laughing
77- Ezekiel conveys God's promise that Israel will reside in their homeland safely, never again to be tormented by neighboring nations. 28:24-26 Laughing

Personally, I've never gotten over the fact that God made light on day one, but didn't get around to making the sun, moon and stars until day 3. Rolling Eyes
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caprice
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2004 02:13 pm
Terry wrote:
Why do you suppose that God did not have someone write down exactly what he meant so that we could have avoided all of the religious wars?


According to Muslims, the Qur`an is the exact word of God, yet you don't see religious wars being avoided there, do ya?

I get the impression you are trying to make the case that the Bible is weak, when really it is man that is weak. It wouldn't matter how clear cut things are, there would still be dissension and disobedience. Take the law for instance. How more clear cut can you get than murder is illegal? Yet it still happens. Not with everyone of course, but it still happens. And it isn't because the law is weak, but humanity is.
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mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2004 02:22 pm
caprice wrote:

According to Muslims, the Qur`an is the exact word of God, yet you don't see religious wars being avoided there, do ya?

The problem there being that the exact word was not very exact.
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caprice
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2004 02:22 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Personally, I've never gotten over the fact that God made light on day one, but didn't get around to making the sun, moon and stars until day 3. Rolling Eyes


That's a very narrow view point. With that logic, the only sources of light are the sun and stars. (I excluded the moon since it reflects light from the sun and is not, of itself, a direct producer of light.) What if it was divine light? And the sun was a means of allowing a constant source for this galaxy, whilst stars are for other areas of the universe? What if it is symbolic in the sense of not being a visual light?
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caprice
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2004 02:40 pm
mesquite wrote:
caprice wrote:

According to Muslims, the Qur`an is the exact word of God, yet you don't see religious wars being avoided there, do ya?

The problem there being that the exact word was not very exact.


And ways of speaking and how words are interpretted will likely always change. I guess my point is, examining things too closely you miss "da big picture", you can't see the forest for the trees. That sort of thing.

There will never be one set of words that will satisfy everyone.
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