78
   

WHAT MADE YOU GRIMACE & GRIT YOUR TEETH TODAY?

 
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2005 09:59 pm
That is awful. I hope there are good support networks around for everyone affected cos, like I said before, clusters of suicides often happen. I hope the groups of ex-cult folk know that and are watching out for each other/seeking support?
0 Replies
 
littlek
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2005 10:00 pm
This stuff is breaking my heart!
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2005 10:08 pm
I'm thinking more and more that Ricky knew what he was doing. I hope that it all has the result he wanted.

Thanks for the continuing info, it's fascinating though since I know both of you my first instinct is sympathy/ protection. And also vengeance either way. (If I knew nobody personally I would be clamoring for accountability about now.)
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2005 11:50 pm
How odd, soz. The more personally I know someone involved in most anything, the more liberal my outlook becomes.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jan, 2005 12:16 am
Monger wrote:
Another tragic loss...
This happened shortly before Ricky lost it. Abe was a close friend of mine & a great guy..everyone loved him...I used to go out with him to drink screwdrivers & watch flicks (he loved the Alien series Smile) when I was maybe 13 or 14 & he was a few years older. He leaves behind a wife & 2 young kids. I remember his sister China as an amazing dancer...I last saw her, unexpectedly, at a rave 2 years ago on new years eve night. Everyone in Japan mentioned in the article I've known personally...I hope they're coping alright.


I grew up with China in Japan. If "Abe" used to go by "Abu" I knew him well as a kid too.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jan, 2005 12:19 am
sozobe wrote:
I'm thinking more and more that Ricky knew what he was doing. I hope that it all has the result he wanted.


I need to go pick up his video this week to digitize but from what I hear it's very much like Islamic gunmens' videos.

The first 20 minutes is the ole weapons show and tell and I heard he makes a call for other similar acts.

I think the only thing in his mind was vengance, not what positive things could come of his actions but what he repeatedly described as a "need" for revenge.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jan, 2005 01:17 am
But why NOW, I wonder? Because of his marital separation????

And - I understand in his last call to his wife, he spoke of his sadness about what he had done - and because the woman did not understand what she had done wrong....

I hope vengeance does not take over - and further damage the lives of - more of the young people involved.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jan, 2005 01:25 am
roger wrote:
How odd, soz. The more personally I know someone involved in most anything, the more liberal my outlook becomes.


That is so true!!!

I have worked with people who did unspeakable things - and the more I know of them, the less I am overwhelmed with blame and hate.

Anyhoo - this is gonna sound all new agey and crap - but I really do think, from experience, that we risk becoming what we hate intensely...........

An truth I wish I realised more effectively in my life.....

Arrrggghh - I'll shut up.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jan, 2005 08:08 am
Oh, that wasn't clear, sorry. I mean I know people involved and I feel strongly that those who committed crimes within the Family should be held accountable; but it's not JUST because I know people involved. It's also because of the facts of the case, as reported in two articles linked to here. Even if I didn't know anyone I would be clamoring for accountability around now (and am as we speak, though figuring out how to do so, practically. Wrote a letter to the NYT praising their coverage and playing up the importance of media coverage when nothing else is working.)

I think that one positive from all of this, whether Ricky intended it or not, is that it is a sensationalistic story to focus all of the strands and get people's attention.
0 Replies
 
sonicyouth05
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jan, 2005 08:12 am
hey Sozobe..i have been admiring you from this 'puter for months. My estraged wide died tonite (messy business - lymph cancer) anyway I am now rid of the woman and ready to start dating. a/s/l?
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jan, 2005 08:15 am
Shocked

Uh, hi.

If it's been months surely you know I'm old, stodgy, and married married married?

Sorry about your estranged wife's death, estranged or no.

Thanks for the compliment, tho...
0 Replies
 
Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jan, 2005 08:17 am
It snowed last night which apparently brings out all the incompetent drivers. I HATE driving in this weather...not because of the snow but because of the idiot drivers out there who cannot drive in snow!
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jan, 2005 08:21 am
Ooh, maybe not so much a compliment.

Stay safe, Kristie.
0 Replies
 
Monger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jan, 2005 08:42 am
Craven de Kere wrote:
I grew up with China in Japan. If "Abe" used to go by "Abu" I knew him well as a kid too.

Yes, he went by Abu & Steven at different times. If you click the small thumbnail of China in that article you'll also see Sam (as he used to go by...it gives his name as John), Angie and her husband (Sunny James' brother).
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jan, 2005 01:10 pm
<reading up>

This stuff - I'm now at page 43, after reading the articles - is (still) enough to freeze the blood in your veins, no matter who tells it. Horrible.

Makes you feel rebellious too. Something must be able to be done, surely? But yeah, I get how these people have safeguarded themselves particularly well, different names, countries ...

Its just - I get what dlowan tells of the reluctance to investigate things, fifteen years ago ... but now theres much more awareness of child abuse, right, its much more actively pursued? Like, Monger says, " the literature alone has never been enough for anything", but nowadays (here at least) they're pulling people into court cases just for possessing pictures ... I mean, when it comes to child porn ... let alone making them ...

I guess I just cant believe people get to get away with things like that. But they do. A victim of child abuse also just wants to get on with her life, focus on that instead, thats hard enough already with that kind of luggage.

But you cant help wanting someone to take revenge ...
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jan, 2005 01:52 pm
dlowan wrote:
Australia now has laws permitting us to prosecute for sexual abuse of children committed overseas

Here too, they arrested some men b/c of what they'd done in Thailand ...

I read an interview with a woman last month, she's a documentary maker, and she made a film about her mother and their time in Baghwan ... you remember Baghwan? The orange clothes? It was a really big thing in the 80s here ... I remember a casual friend of my mothers went too, it was popular among former sixties types. I remember Baghwan was considered weird and funny, but still more like a bit "out there" than sinister.

Anyway, woman recounts how she was in her early teens when her mother joined Baghwan and 13 when they went to live in one of its communities ... the parents were encouraged to "explore and develop themselves" and were basically relieved of the care of their children, who were placed in different houses ... she says the community kind of appealed to people's, well ... you dont always feel like parenting, and her mother had gotten her when she'd still been very young ... they were basically told it was OK to let go of that parenting responsibility, that it would be good for their children .. but she at 13 thus ended up working long days cooking and cleaning to take care of the younger children. Plus, residents were encouraged to "cuddle", and many an older man would come to "cuddle" in bed with the 13- or 14-year olds ... and they didnt know what to think about it, exchanged gossips about the different men.

For the movie she talked with the woman who had been in charge of her house, she claimed never to have known such things occurred ... and her mother said, "but you yourself wanted to go, you were enthusiastic", and its true, she had always told her mum, yes, of course, good idea, cause she'd wanted to be a good daughter, please and take care of her mom. Anyway, now she made this film about it with her mother, and from what I read she confronts her about everything yet kind of also leaves her response alongside ... says she doesnt want revenge, that they get along well now ...

There's all these circles of loyalty to, identification with, justification of alongside the anger about, feeling of betrayal, etc ... Complicated mind maps ...
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jan, 2005 06:26 pm
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0501/18/acd.01.html

Her lies made me grimace but this part made me laugh:

Quote:
COOPER: But do you say no abuse ever happened?

BOROWIK: No, I never said that. Actually, we have explained very clearly that prior to 1986, we did not have policies in place that would disable that kind of contact. We've had a liberal environment. And there were no stringent policies that had been laid down.

COOPER: Wait, I don't understand, though. I was alive in 1986 and even the '70s and late '60s. Why did you need a policy? I mean, most people don't need a policy saying don't have sex with 4-year- olds. That's, I mean, why do you need a stringent policy? Isn't that just kind of common sense?

BOROWIK: Well, the way our group operated, we have a belief that God created sexuality, and he created as something pure if it's done in a loving fashion. However, when this -- when the group first grew and evolved, there was not any rule system down for just a lot of things. So as the group evolved and grew, we put down stringent policies in 1986...

COOPER: Right. But I mean...

BOROWIK: ... forbidding any kind of contact between adults and minors.

COOPER: ... there wasn't a policy probably saying don't shoot yourself in the head, but people weren't shooting themselves in the head. Why -- I don't understand why you needed to write a policy if there wasn't rampant sexual abuse? Why do you need suddenly a policy in 1986?


Incidentally, the policy was more of a "para Ingles ver" move.

It was taken as a "on the record" policy because of those "inconvenient" court cases and not a clear "it's wrong to fuck kids" policy.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Jan, 2005 04:29 am
I've spent a few hours reading about the Family at various internet sites today, following what you've written here, Craven, & a couple of postings from Deb on another A2K thread. I wanted to know more. Anything I could say as a result of what I've learned just seems completely inadequate. It is deeply disturbing information. And to read of former friends in the news like this must be truly awful. What can I say? Shocking, just so shocking & sad.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Jan, 2005 07:09 pm
If you want to know more this is a site that was set up to document things, it's been online less than a week but is the most organized attempt so far:

www.xFamily.org
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Jan, 2005 01:53 am
Yes, I do want to know more, Craven. I will be very interested to read what former Family members are saying there, too. I've been reading from the other 2 sites I've looked at & have learned so much more than than the very little I knew already.
I'm wondering, though ... Are there differences in approach/attitude between different groups of ex-Family members? If so, I'm wondering why?
0 Replies
 
 

 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.05 seconds on 09/22/2024 at 11:40:08