Do you think Zimmerman will be convicted of murder?

It's interesting that the local prosecutor stepped aside to avoid the appearance of a conflict of interest but Bill can just ignore that and accuse the governor of taking over the case without any facts.

Gotta be honest with ya, Bill. My thought was that he has been studying Socrates and the Socratic Method.

It seems to be working brilliantly.

Firefly we are getting more and more examples where media driven outcries concerning poor underdogs being harm by evil white guys had short circuit the criminal justice system and cause charges to be level again people for political reasons and as a citizen I am getting damn tired of such happening.

First we begin decades ago with the story of a poor black girl gang rape by a whole number of high power white men in NY with Al Sharpton driving a media campaign.

A rape that never happen but it did harm to any number of innocent men.

Let see then with AL Sharpton in the background once more and we had three evil white students charge with gang raping a poor hard working black single mother and college student. With a great public outcry.

Once more a rape that never happen.

Then a poor hard working and religion maid raped by the evil white head of the IMF of course the case fell apart.

Now a "white" gun carrying crime watch man just gun down an innocent black kid on his way back from a 7/11 due to him being a racist.

Wonderful stories that do not hold up but all had cause charges to be level to make the mob and the people behind the mob happy such as Sharpton.

Well, no; we are AWARE of the facts.
Thay are the black and leftist hysteria against Mr. Z.
Those r the operative and motivational facts; no mystery.





David

I see it differently, Frank.
If he were all that Socratic,
then he 'd be asking more questions than he does.
He makes a lot of naked assertions.
I don 't think he 's all that sharp of a razor.





David

He seems to me to be asking lots of questions. Most the regular kind...with question marks at the end. But some without that punctuation.

I think he IS asking questions, David.



There does seem to be an epidemic of that going around A2K.




Jury is still out on that for me. I'll stay tuned...and I guess I may change my mind. But my response to Bill stands for now.

Lodging charges against someone for possible criminal acts, is not only not a "short circuit" of the criminal justice system, it is, in fact, using the criminal justice system as a way of establishing the facts of the matter, whether laws were violated, and whether punishment is justified.

You are overlooking the fact that, in this case, an unarmed young man was shot dead--by Zimmerman--and there is no disputing that fact. This is not a case where there was no real victim--there was a real victim of a real shooting and there are real unanswered questions about how and why that shooting came about.

You seem to think the "first responders" discounted the possibility that a crime took place, when that is not the case. They just didn't arrest Zimmerman immediately, but why they didn't arrest him that night is not at all that clear--and political considerations, on the part of the D.A.'s office, might have affected the initial decision not to arrest him. This situation was not clear-cut, despite any injuries which Zimmerman might have had, and an arrest should have been made while an investigation was ongoing, in order to determine whether Zimmerman had a valid affirmative defense that he was defending his own life, or whether he had acted recklessly, and without sufficient justification, in following, possibly provoking, and finally shooting Martin.

Had a black teen shot an unarmed white man that night, under similar circumstances, I am sure that teen would have been arrested. That Zimmerman was not arrested was what sparked the public outcry--law enforcement was acting as though the death of this young black man was of no consequence, that the death did not require an adequate and thorough investigation, and that the person responsible for that death was not being held legally accountable to explain and justify his actions. And that public outcry was quite legitimate in this case. And, in response to such a public outcry, law enforcement should react by re-examining the case, and their decision about whether to arrest and charge, and that is just what they did, and they decided there was evidence to warrant bringing charges. This case should have been in court all along--that was where it belonged--and that would not have happened without that public outcry.

But, now that it is in a court, I feel the public demonstrations, and the agitation by people such as Sharpton, should stop, and everyone should be prepared to accept the legal outcome of this case, regardless of what that outcome is.

Additional documents in this case have been unsealed, and there is likely to be a court fight on Friday between the media, who want this info publicly released, and the prosecution and defense, who may both not want the new info made public at this point. I'm inclined to feel the info should not be made public until one side or the other presents it as evidence in court and that there is no immediate need to feed the public/media appetite for more tidbits, mainly to give the talking heads more to say, and which, in the long run, might only make a fair, unbiased, trial in court more difficult to bring about.

You seem to be unconcerned that a young man, who happened to have been black, might have been unfairly targeted, followed, provoked, and then shot. All because Zimmerman was too impulsive and couldn't wait until the police showed up to do their job.

You persist in wanting to see this teen as "a hoodlum"--despite a total lack of evidence that was the case, and you further discount the possibility that Zimmerman was the sole provocateur in this situation, as well as the possibility that the teen might have been acting to defend himself from a weird guy who was staring at him and following him. From Martin's vantage point, it was Zimmerman who was acting suspiciously--he didn't know what the hell Zimmerman was up to. And black teens aren't always fast to call the police for help because of trust issues, and we don't know what Zimmerman said or did when he finally caught up with Martin, or who actually threw the first punch. You've already decided that, in this situation, this teen deserved to be shot and killed, and your inaccurately, and unfairly, calling him a "hoodlum" is simply trying to offer more justification for that already biased opinion on your part.

As a citizen, with any interest in seeing justice, you should be able to appreciate why a public outcry took place in this case. You should appreciate the fact that law enforcement responded appropriately to that outcry. You should appreciate the fact it is now in court, where it belongs. If there is evidence to support the charges, to the judge's satisfaction, it will move toward trial. And, whatever the outcome of that trial, or dismissal, or plea agreement, all sides should accept it.

Your mind is so clogged with crap, and muddled thinking, you can't distinguish one case from another. Try just focusing on this case, if you can, because the other things you are trying to drag in are completely irrelevant and unrelated.

I kind of take BillRM's point, in a general sort of way. Defending a murder charge would leave the average citizen in bankruptcy or debt for the rest of his life. Still, this is why we have grand juries and arrainment hearings. In this particular case, I do believe an arrest should have been made, and immediately. Still, Bill has a valid point, in general.

But, as you say, you do believe that an arrest should have been made in this case. Law enforcement should not hesitate about making an arrest, particularly in a homicide, because of the financial burdens that will impose on the suspect--that's just not a priority that should enter into their thinking at all.

High profile cases like this one give defense lawyers exposure, and that may reduce the fees they charge clients that aren't affluent. Jose Baez made no money from Casey Anthony, but the exposure, and the acquittal, were priceless for him--his reputation was made.
The same may be true for Zimmerman's lawyer in this case--he's getting great publicity, his name will become widely known, and he may considerably adjust his fees because of that.

I think BillRM's real point is that he feels Zimmerman isn't guilty of any crime, and he shouldn't have been charged, so that makes any legal expenses incurred by Zimmerman even more unfair in BillRM's mind.

Legal fees can be quite expensive. Perhaps people need to be able to purchase legal insurance, just as they purchase medical insurance, to help cover expenses if they are sued or arrested.

The Dream Team made a name for themselves, but most blame the judge for the results.

Firefly dear heart people had been kill or permanently cripple without the used of any weapon for all the history of mankind.

Pounding someone head into the sidewalk is a damn good way of killing or crippling someone in fact.

So Trayvon not having a firearm did not mean that he was not a threat to the life of Zimmerman and that Zimmerman was not justify in using deadly force to defense himself.

Second, being follow is not in any way either a justification or a provocation for an assault of any kind at all.

Any one who would try to pound another person head into the sidewalk because he was annoy that person was following him on the public streets is my idea of a hoodlum if not your.

How do you know his head was pounded on the sidewalk? Were you a witness to the crime?

Those are the issues that will be addressed in court.

Including why Zimmerman continued to follow Martin, even though the police were on the way, and the 911 dispacher told him not to follow Martin. Why did Zimmerman even get close enough to Martin that Martin could hit him or pound his head on the sidewalk? Why didn't Zimmerman just wait for the police? Zimmerman didn't "stand his ground"--he pursued Martin. Why? Martin was not committing any crime and the police were en route. And we don't know who threw the first punch--and that's a crucial factor in this case.

Many unanswered questions. This case is now in court, where it belongs.

The only thing you know for sure right now is that Zimmerman's possession of a firearm certainly was a threat to the life of Trayvon Martin.

Wait to hear the evidence--from both sides--before deciding whether Zimmerman was justified in using deadly force.

Zimmerman's head or body should have had some hand or finger marks where he was held while that alleged pounding was going on. Were any found?

BillRM is just willing to accept Zimmerman's version of events without questioning it. Unfortunately, the other guy can't give his side of it--the state will have to try to speak for him.

The issue was declare self defense by the first investigators and a media campaign directed by the likes of those who gave us such try in the media cases as the Tawana Brawley gang 'rape' and the Duke players gang 'rape' cases should not overrule the judgments of these investigators.

We should not allowed charges to be placed against any citizen due to media campaigns with a special note when those involved in such a campaign had a long history of causing pain to innocent men dating back to 1987.

You had not seen the picture of Zimmerman head wounds that I had posted here that was taken within four minutes of the assault and with the GPS location embedded along with the time?

Kinds of consisted with Zimmerman statement that Trayvon was pounding his head into the sidewalk to say the least.

The state is not supposed to speak for Trayvon, that is what our broken and corrupt "justice" system has turned into after being mutilated by victim culture. The state is supposed to speak for truth and justice.

How do you know without any doubt that it wasn't self-inflected wound?

As a kid, I used to get into lots of fights, because I wore glasses from the time I was very young. I had many fights with kids who teased me, because I learned early on that fighting stopped the teasing. I bruised a few kids, and a few bruised me, but nothing to shoot and kill.

Yeah?
Try following me on a dark night....

Joe (and get nice and close) Nation