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Failed to understand " that which ". What does it mean?

 
 
Reply Sun 8 Apr, 2012 10:15 am

Context:

It is difficult to undo our own damage and to recall to our presence that which we have asked to leave. It is hard to desecrate a grove and change your mind.

More:
The Language of God
http://www.docin.com/p-278971737.html
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JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Apr, 2012 04:32 pm
@oristarA,
Quote:
It is difficult to undo our own damage and to recall to our presence that which we have asked to leave.


Let's replace 'that' with some other possibilities and see if that helps you, Ori.

It is difficult to undo our own damage and to recall to our presence those things which we have asked to leave.

It is difficult to undo our own damage and to recall to our presence the very things which we have asked to leave.

It is difficult to undo our own damage and to recall to our presence all those things which we have asked to leave.

It is difficult to undo our own damage and to recall to our presence that group of things which we have asked to leave.

oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Apr, 2012 06:05 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

Quote:
It is difficult to undo our own damage and to recall to our presence that which we have asked to leave.


Let's replace 'that' with some other possibilities and see if that helps you, Ori.

It is difficult to undo our own damage and to recall to our presence those things which we have asked to leave.

It is difficult to undo our own damage and to recall to our presence the very things which we have asked to leave.

It is difficult to undo our own damage and to recall to our presence all those things which we have asked to leave.

It is difficult to undo our own damage and to recall to our presence that group of things which we have asked to leave.


Thank you JTT. No doubt I've got it clearer. The meaning of "that" here is no more a problem.

But I still haven't got the whole sentence:

Prolem one: the exact meaning of "to recall to our presence;"
Problem two: the exact meaning of " we have asked to leave."

If a thing was the one we have asked to leave, it would be, for example, an immoral or evil one. Am I on the right track?

JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Apr, 2012 06:14 pm
@oristarA,
It is difficult to undo our own damage and to recall to our presence that which we have asked to leave. It is hard to desecrate a grove and change your mind.

Quote:
But I still haven't got the whole sentence:

Prolem one: the exact meaning of "to recall to our presence;"
Problem two: the exact meaning of " we have asked to leave."

If a thing was the one we have asked to leave, it would be, for example, an immoral or evil one. Am I on the right track?


And neither have I, Ori, got the whole sentence that is. I could speculate on the meaning and I might end up being accurate or not. Perhaps a larger context/more actual surrounding text would help.
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Apr, 2012 06:47 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

It is difficult to undo our own damage and to recall to our presence that which we have asked to leave. It is hard to desecrate a grove and change your mind.

Quote:
But I still haven't got the whole sentence:

Prolem one: the exact meaning of "to recall to our presence;"
Problem two: the exact meaning of " we have asked to leave."

If a thing was the one we have asked to leave, it would be, for example, an immoral or evil one. Am I on the right track?


And neither have I, Ori, got the whole sentence that is. I could speculate on the meaning and I might end up being accurate or not. Perhaps a larger context/more actual surrounding text would help.


It's from Annie Dillard's Teaching a Stone to Talk. Sadly, the sentence is the beginning sentence. I dunno that that "later context" would help or not.

Quote:
I. Annie Dillard

It is difficult to undo our own damage, and to recall to our presence that which we have asked to leave. It is hard to desecrate a grove and change your mind. The very holy mountains are keeping mum. We doused the burning bush and cannot rekindle it; we are lighting matches in vain under every green tree. Did the wind use to cry, and hills shout forth praise? Now speech has perished from among the lifeless things of earth, and living things say very little to very few. Birds may crank out sweet gibberish and monkeys howl; horses neigh and pigs say, as you recall, oink oink. But so do cobbles rumble when a wave recedes, and thunders break the air in lightning storms. I call these noises silence. It could be that wherever there is motion there is noise, as when a whale breaches and smacks the water — and wherever there is stillness there is the still small voice, God's speaking from the whirlwind, nature's old song and dance, the show we drove from town. At any rate, now it is all we can do, and among our best efforts, to try to teach a given human language, English, to chimpanzees.

In the forties an American psychologist and his wife tried to teach a chimp actually to speak. At the end of three years the creature could pronounce, in a hoarse whisper, the words "mama," "papa," and "cup." After another three years of training she could whisper, with difficulty, still only "mama," "papa," and "cup." The more recent successes at teaching chimpanzees American Sign Language are well known. Just the other day a chimp told us, if we can believe that we truly share a vocabulary, that she had been sad in the morning. I'm sorry we asked.

What have we been doing all these centuries but trying to call God back to the mountain, or, failing that, raise a peep out of anything that isn't us? What is the difference between a cathedral and a physics lab? Are not they both saying: Hello? We spy on whales and on interstellar radio objects; we starve ourselves and pray till we're blue.

"Teaching a Stone to Talk" (excerpt)
from Teaching a Stone to Talk; expeditions and encounters
Copyright 1982 by Annie Dillard. Reprinted by permission of Russell & Volkening.


JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Apr, 2012 07:07 pm
@oristarA,
Even though I understand the words and the grammar, I might not fully understand Annie's meaning, but I'll give it a go, Ori.

It is difficult to undo our own damage,

I believe she refers to the damage we humans have caused to the environment

and to recall to our presence that which we have asked to leave.

to remember the things we have caused to become extinct

It is hard to desecrate a grove and change your mind.

After we bulldoze/destroy a grove of trees, we can't go back to where we were.

The very holy mountains are keeping mum.

No help, no description, no admonition is coming from the mountains

We doused the burning bush and cannot rekindle it; we are lighting matches in vain under every green tree.

Maybe she is referring to the biblical 'burning bush'. we are seeking to destroy everything.

Did the wind use to cry, and hills shout forth praise? Now speech has perished from among the lifeless things of earth, and living things say very little to very few.

Maybe a reference to older civilizations who seemed more in contact with nature. The people of today are distant from the Earth, we cannot see, hear or feel.

Remember, Ori, that all this is speculation on my part.
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Apr, 2012 09:02 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

Even though I understand the words and the grammar, I might not fully understand Annie's meaning, but I'll give it a go, Ori.

It is difficult to undo our own damage,

I believe she refers to the damage we humans have caused to the environment

and to recall to our presence that which we have asked to leave.

to remember the things we have caused to become extinct

It is hard to desecrate a grove and change your mind.

After we bulldoze/destroy a grove of trees, we can't go back to where we were.


I think I've got it basically.
Thank you JTT.
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Apr, 2012 09:52 am
@oristarA,

I find it difficult to recall to my mind that which I have just read, the text excerpt by Annie Dillard, because it is a pile of poop.
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