30
   

Listening to the Supreme Court hearings on Obamacare. . .

 
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Jun, 2012 09:47 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

Apropos of opposing Obamacare: Are there any recent polls that distinguish between opponents who'd rather have Medicare for all, and opponents who don't want any universal healthcare on principle? Most pollsters shoehorn public opinion into this binary "oppose / support" format. I find that inadequate and frustrating.
Good question. I don't know the answer. Most polls are stealthily prescriptive in terms of the prefabricated choices they offer and the terms of the question asked. All I'm going on is a rather vague impression that most polls suggest a small majority opposed to some elements of the Obamacare law.

I do find it hard to believe that a Medicare for all Bill could be passed by our government. The financial projections for the Medicare we have aren't very encouraging, and the demographic projections make it steadily worse.
0 Replies
 
Irishk
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Jun, 2012 09:49 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:
Apropos of opposing Obamacare: Are there any recent polls that distinguish between opponents who'd rather have Medicare for all, and opponents who don't want any universal healthcare on principle? Most pollsters shoehorn public opinion into this binary "oppose / support" format. I find that inadequate and frustrating.
I think Kaiser has published the type of poll you're referencing (if I understand the question properly), but they publish many, many health care polls and I think the one I'm remembering was back in 2009. It's been a while, I think, since they've asked the type of questions of which you're concerned.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Jun, 2012 09:50 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Perhaps I'm reading the ruling wrong, but my understanding is that the court did not in fact use the commerce clause to justify the legality of the mandate.

Cycloptichorn


I didn't see any explicit reference to it either. However, it seems to me that, by upholding the mandate, they implicitly affirmed that extention of the commerce clause. Perhaps this will remain a point for subsequent more explicit review.
Irishk
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Jun, 2012 10:00 pm
@georgeob1,
I don't know if this helps, or not, but this is at the conclusion of Chief Justice Roberts' opinion:

Quote:
The Affordable Care Act is constitutional in part and unconstitutional in part. The individual mandate cannot be upheld as an exercise of Congress’s power under the Commerce Clause. That Clause authorizes Congress to regulate interstate commerce, not to order individuals to engage in it. In this case, however, it is reasonable to construe what Congress has done as increasing taxes on those who have a certain amount of income, but choose to go without health insurance. Such legislation is within Congress’s power to tax . .
.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Jun, 2012 10:03 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
I didn't see any explicit reference to it either. However, it seems to me that, by upholding the mandate, they implicitly affirmed that extention of the commerce clause. Perhaps this will remain a point for subsequent more explicit review.

No need to speculate about anything implicit. Roberts's opinion explicitly strikes down the commerce-clause rationale, and explicitly upholds the taxing-clause rationale. Because the four liberals joined the taxation part of Roberts's opinion, Obamacare is safe. Because the four conservatives joined him in striking down the commerce-clause rationale, it's dead. Explicitly so.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Jun, 2012 01:06 am
@McGentrix,
Quote:
It was an excruciating test for reporters who were handed a 59-page decision choked with legalese and asked to report its meaning almost instantly.

Bloomberg News and The Associated Press were the first reporting the news — correctly, at 10:07 a.m. EST — that the court upheld most of Obama's health care overhaul and a mandate that nearly every American have health insurance. They were followed by Reuters and the SCOTUSblog.

The New York Times made a point of tweeting that reporters and editors were analyzing the decision and would write when they were comfortable that the nuances were correct. The paper didn't tweet the news until 10:20 a.m.

CNN apologized for its error, saying it "regrets that it didn't wait to report out the full and complete opinion" that upheld the mandate requiring virtually all Americans to have health insurance. Fox, however, insisted it was right. "Fox reported the facts, as they came in," said network executive Michael Clemente.
Source
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Reply Fri 29 Jun, 2012 07:17 am
@Thomas,
Quote:
If the noncompliance penalty is a tax, Obama did increase taxes on middle-class Americans.

Except he didn't. This will apply to less than 5% of taxpayers in the end. Claiming it is a tax increase is overblown rhetoric at best, out and out lying at worst.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Reply Fri 29 Jun, 2012 07:22 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
What other statutes levy taxes for non-compliance? seems that all others levy "fines" or prison time.

You are looking at it the wrong way. It is a different tax rate based on personal circumstances.
Married people pay a different tax rate from single.
People that put money in a retirement account pay a different tax rate on those funds.
Now, people that have health insurance pay a different tax rate than those that don't.
revelette
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Jun, 2012 08:08 am
@parados,
Quote:
The mandate can indeed be characterized as a tax, as the Court found. But it is not a massive tax hike on the middle class, much less the biggest tax hike in American history. The tax imposed by the individual mandate amounts to either $695 or 2.5 percent of household income for those who don’t have insurance and are not exempt based on income levels. By comparison, the payroll tax cut extension Republicans repeatedly blocked earlier this year would have added 3.1 percentage points to the tax and cost the average family $1,500 a year.

The mandate, meanwhile, would hit a small amount of Americans — somewhere between 2 and 5 percent — according to a study from the Urban Institute. The number could be even lower depending on the law’s success: in Massachusetts, the only state with an insurance mandate, less than 1 percent of the state’s residents paid the penalty in 2009.


source
0 Replies
 
revelette
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Jun, 2012 08:42 am
So far there has been some pretty extreme reactions from the usual suspects.

Quote:
Drudge Smears Justice Roberts Over His Seizures

In response to the Supreme Court's ruling in favor of health care reform, the Drudge Report is smearing Chief Justice John Roberts over the possibility that he might use epilepsy medication and suggesting that it affected his judgment.

Drudge linked to a Real Clear Politics post that contains a clip of right-wing radio host Michael Savage claiming that "if you look at Roberts' writings you can see the cognitive disassociation in what he is saying."

Roberts had a seizure in 2007, after suffering one 14 years earlier. The Washington Post reported this month that Roberts has not publicly addressed whether he has epilepsy.

Drudge also linked to a 2007 New York Times report that discussed Roberts' medical options. The article described the side effects of epilepsy drugs, but it has never been reported that Roberts actually takes such medication.


source
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Jun, 2012 08:59 am
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:
While I agree with you that Roberts did that, I don't really find it that interesting. Roberts merely applied a well-accepted principle of statutory construction: Courts should go out of their way to construe statutes so as to conflict with the constitution.

While I agree that modern conservative jurisprudence tends toward this result in practice, I'm confident that the goal is to construe statutes so that they conform with the constitution.
revelette
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Jun, 2012 09:10 am
This tax thing i guess is going to be the line of attack over the SC decision. The following is from the refrence I posted in my previous post.

Quote:
The “individual mandate”—the requirement that individuals either have health insurance coverage or pay a fine—is both the best known and the least popular component of the Affordable Care Act (ACA).1 That people know about the mandate—and may even worry about it—is not surprising, given both the heated political controversy and the constitutional challenge surrounding this provision of the law. What may be surprising, however, is that if the ACA were in effect today, 94 percent of the total population (93 percent of the nonelderly population) or 250.3 million people out of 268.8 million nonelderly people—would not face a requirement to newly purchase insurance or pay a fine.


urban.org

There is a good table graph, but I couldn't figure out how to post it here.
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Jun, 2012 09:20 am
How will this penalty/tax be imposed/levied?
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Jun, 2012 09:23 am
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:

How will this penalty/tax be imposed/levied?


Rarely.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Jun, 2012 09:28 am
@revelette,
revelette wrote:
What may be surprising, however, is that if the ACA were in effect today, 94 percent of the total population (93 percent of the nonelderly population) or 250.3 million people out of 268.8 million nonelderly people—would not face a requirement to newly purchase insurance or pay a fine.


Yes, this is big. Very few people are affected by this part -- and then of the ones who are, many of them would love to buy insurance but haven't been able to afford it, or have a pre-existing condition, or have some other barrier.

So group of people who a) don't have insurance and b) don't want insurance is really quite small.
Irishk
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Jun, 2012 10:02 am
@sozobe,
More than 45 million uninsured is not insignificant, though. I never saw a breakdown of percentages as to affordability vs. just opting to not buy.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Jun, 2012 10:39 am
@sozobe,
sozobe wrote:
So group of people who a) don't have insurance and b) don't want insurance is really quite small.
That certainly depends on what you call "quite small" - we've more than 250.000 persons here ... and most think that this a very high number Wink
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  2  
Reply Fri 29 Jun, 2012 10:56 am
OK quite a small percentage would probably be more accurate.

The point is, according to the statistics revelette cites anyway which I haven't confirmed but which seem in line with other things I've seen, only 6 percent of Americans would be in a position to either buy health insurance that they don't already have, or pay a fine for refusing to do so.

A cornerstone of the Affordable Care Act is to make insurance more affordable for all -- if you want it, you can get it.

I would guess that a significant chunk of those who don't currently have insurance want it but can't afford it, can't get it due to a pre-existing condition, etc.

Which means that the fine-paying segment would be considerably less than 6 percent. Which is a small percentage.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Jun, 2012 10:57 am
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:

Thomas wrote:
While I agree with you that Roberts did that, I don't really find it that interesting. Roberts merely applied a well-accepted principle of statutory construction: Courts should go out of their way to construe statutes so as to conflict with the constitution.

While I agree that modern conservative jurisprudence tends toward this result in practice, I'm confident that the goal is to construe statutes so that they conform with the constitution.

Laughing Obviously that should have been "to construe statutes so that they avoid conflict with the constitution." It's an old vice of mine: I think a word while writing; then I assume that I therefore must have written it.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Jun, 2012 11:50 am
@Thomas,
I do that all the time. One of the biggest failings is leaving "not" out of a phrase. That's why it's always a good idea to hit "Preview" before posting, or at least read it after you post it so you can edit. I don't always, but i'm getting better about it.
 

Related Topics

 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.04 seconds on 05/05/2024 at 08:34:12