10
   

CNN: Giffords to Resign from Congress

 
 
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 29 Jan, 2012 07:05 pm
@firefly,
I had the right to read the clear words and meanings of the constitution and you have the rights to ignore the constitution if you care to do so when it does not fit your desires to how things should be in your opinion.
firefly
 
  3  
Reply Sun 29 Jan, 2012 07:43 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
I had the right to read the clear words and meanings of the constitution

Then go back and read it again until you understand it.

Expulsion is defined as a punitive, disciplinary action.

They don't punish, discipline, or expel members of Congress for getting shot in the head or suffering strokes. And no one in their right mind, and of normal intelligence, would interpret Article I, Section 5 of the United States Constitution to mean that expulsion could or would be used in such situations.

But, I'm talking about people in their right mind, of normal intelligence. Laughing
http://www.jacarandafm.com/kagiso/action/media/downloadFile?media_fileid=128108&a=1730&s=245x190

BillRM
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 29 Jan, 2012 09:00 pm
@firefly,
Sorry dear but if you keep taking a salary for a job that you are not able to do any longer for a prolong period for whatever reason and at the same time denying a not small fraction of the American people their rights to have their voices hear in congress that can surely be consider misconduct at least in my world view it does.

In any case it does not matter what your opinion or my opinion of when a member can be expel as the constitution clearly leave it up to the two chambers alone to decide the issue.

But beside that I agree 100 percents with Hawkeye that Giffords not resigning sooner is misconduct and that misconduct rise to the level of expulsion if need be.


hawkeye10
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 29 Jan, 2012 09:45 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
It goes the other way--if nothing gives them the authority to do it, they can't do it.





Incapacity of a Member of the Senate

Jack Maskell
Legislative Attorney
American Law Division

Congressinal Research Service The Library of Congress 101
Independence Avenue, SE Washington, DC 20540-750

Order Code RS22556

December 15, 2006


Quote:
A sitting Member of the
Senate or the House (who has taken the oath of office and is not merely a Member-elect),
who is alive, and who has not resigned or voluntarily accepted an incompatible office,
would thus under current precedents appear to be removable only under the “expulsion”
authority of each House.(18)


Quote:
18
Although an expulsion is generally in the nature of a discipline or punishment of a Member of
the Senate, the power to expel has been recognized, first and foremost, as an action based on the
self-preservation interests of the Senate (or the House), that is, for the protection of the
institution, its Members and its proceedings. Cushing, supra, at 250-251, 257-259, 268-270;
Story, supra at § 835. As discussed in Deschler’s Precedents, such proceedings are “rooted in
the judgment of the House as to what was necessary or appropriate for it to do to assure the
integrity of its legislative performance and its institutional acceptability to the people at large as
a serious and responsible instrument of government.” Deschler’s Precedents, supra at 174, citing
Powell v. McCormack, 395 F2d 577, McGowan concurring, at 607 (D.C.Cir. 1968), rev’d on
other grounds, 395 U.S. 486 (1969). There are no specific “grounds” for an expulsion designated
in the Constitution. Note Bowman and Bowman, “Article I, Section 5: Congress’ Power to Expel
— An Exercise in Self-Restraint,” at 29 Syracuse Law Review, 1071, 1089-1090 (1977). Because
of the infamy of being an expelled Member, however, and the fact that it requires a 2/3rds
approval, expulsions are rare (not occurring in the Senate since the Civil War era), and the act
of expulsion of a disabled or incapacitated Member is unlikely


http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA460685

It is clear to me that the House does have the legal authority to declare a seat empty, though perhaps after legally making the seat empty, and that in the cases of those who cant/wont show up and who also refuse to resign they should exercise this legal authority in the best interests of the district in question as well as the nation.


I shall not hold my breath waiting for Firefly to admit that she is wrong, though she is, again.
hawkeye10
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 29 Jan, 2012 09:52 pm
@hawkeye10,
-2 popularity for proving Firefly wrong...go figure, what a shock. Truth is not wanted by those who operate to satisfy their prejudices and biases.
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Sun 29 Jan, 2012 10:10 pm
@hawkeye10,
Of course Hawkeye she is wrong but as we both know that carry no meaning or weight for her.

I just can see a case of a senator who had a stroke at the beginning of his or her term of 6 years and are not able to function as a senator.

There is no way that the senate would not used it power to removed such a person under the constitution and it would be a moral outrageous if they did not do so.

The overriding issue is the constitution rights of the people to have the representation call for by the constitution.

It was bad enough to have a house member for a year that could not function but a senator for 6 years!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Sun 29 Jan, 2012 10:18 pm
@hawkeye10,
Oh as far as the large votes downs I am betting some idiot is making up phony accounts to do so as I had not seen this level of vote downs in a year or more on a thread that is not all that popular/busy or heated compare to some others with far less votes downs.
Ceili
 
  2  
Reply Sun 29 Jan, 2012 10:33 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
Truth is not wanted by those who operate to satisfy their prejudices and biases.


The irony is overwhelming..
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 29 Jan, 2012 10:33 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Oh as far as the large votes downs I am betting some idiot is making up phony accounts to do so as I had not seen this level of vote downs in a year or more on a thread that is not all that popular/busy or heated compare to some others with far less votes downs.


I dont care who is doing it or why, but what I do care is that Robert get it through his sometimes thick head that popularity requirements are deleterious to debate, and that he fucked up by including popularity tools into A2K.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Sun 29 Jan, 2012 10:34 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
Sorry dear but if you keep taking a salary for a job that you are not able to do any longer for a prolong period

Firstly, I've asked you before to drop the patronizing and sexist form of address by referring to me as "dear". You do not refer to male posters as "dear", and, since you express nothing but contempt for me, it does not reflect fond feelings. It is simply sexist.

You do not understand that members of Congress are elected to a term of office which is not the same as having "a job"--they are office holders.
Quote:
Since 1789, over 12,000 individuals have served as a Member of the U.S. House of Representatives or the U.S. Senate. Nowhere is there a job description for serving in the nation's legislature. Each Member of Congress defines his or her own duties and sets their own priorities.
http://www.congresslink.org/print_basics_whatmembersdo.htm

Quote:
The duties carried out by a Member of Congress are understood to include representation, legislation, and constituent service and education, as well as political and electoral activities. The expectations and duties of a Member of Congress are extensive, encompassing several roles that
could be full-time jobs by themselves. Despite the acceptance of these roles and other activities as facets of the Member’s job, there is no formal set of requirements or official explanation of what roles might be played as Members carry out the duties of their offices. In the absence of formal
authorities, many of the responsibilities that Members of Congress have assumed over the years have evolved from the expectations of Members and their constituents.


Upon election to Congress, Members typically develop approaches to their jobs that serve a wide range of roles and responsibilities. Given the dynamic nature of the congressional experience, priorities placed on various Member roles tend to shift in response to changes in seniority, committee assignment, policy focus, district or state priorities, institutional leadership, and electoral pressures. In response, the roles and specific duties a Member carries out are often highlighted or de-emphasized accordingly.

Although elements of all the roles described can be found among the duties performed by any Senator or Representative, the degree to which each is carried out differs among Members. Each Member may also emphasize different duties during different stages of his or her career. With no
written requirements, each Member is free to define his or her own job and set his or her own priorities.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:GM3yL0d6V6sJ:www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL33686.pdf+job+requirements+for+members+of+congress&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESidotgrKauXcQU8g_-JmIWN2TGCYpGQkgUgHz8_ukTzruWFFa0e5umAlem8JuewFUc28ybkYApf8ZEajgF2Vxj6cjjSXTfBxxKeClkjB2iyaxJHCpc8U-h4LBkZEZzTfeBVPtaZ&sig=AHIEtbQd5SC1WHmLkOp5BvJn4LLt06Y_-A

Throughout the past year, Giffords Congressional offices, for which she was responsible, continued to serve her constituents needs and to address their concerns, and her Web site additionally provided constituents with educational services, news, notices of events, etc.
She was present to vote on the debt ceiling bill.
She also had introduced legislation two days before she was shot, and that bill passed, unanimously, minutes after she submitted her resignation.
Her Congressional district was not deprived of the services of a representative in the House--duties associated with her office were continued during her recovery.
Quote:
But beside that I agree 100 percents with Hawkeye that Giffords not resigning sooner is misconduct and that misconduct rise to the level of expulsion if need be.

So you agree with someone who is also wrong and who also doesn't know what he is talking about. Laughing

There was no "misconduct", at all, on Rep. Giffords part. You are simply a nitwit.


hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 29 Jan, 2012 10:39 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
Of course Hawkeye she is wrong but as we both know that carry no meaning or weight for her


Yet another time here where I find myself hoping that she did not go to law school. Even half wit lawyers know that they should consult with experts in the particular law they which to give opinion on before they give opinion. But of course you know that I have long thought that she simply practices lying when ever she does not think those she is speaking with are smart enough to catch her in her lies. She clearly has little respect for us here at A2K, nor does she have much honor.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Sun 29 Jan, 2012 10:54 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
It is clear to me that the House does have the legal authority to declare a seat empty, though perhaps after legally making the seat empty, and that in the cases of those who cant/wont show up and who also refuse to resign they should exercise this legal authority in the best interests of the district in question as well as the nation.

Where is the formal requirement that the representative must be present in the halls of Congress?

How much time is the representative required to actually be physically present in Congress?

Where is this formal requirement written?
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 29 Jan, 2012 11:01 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
With no
written requirements, each Member is free to define his or her own job and set his or her own priorities.


Bullshit, not when it comes to showing up to Congress as each member does not have the authority to decide for themselves to not show up and participate in Congress

Quote:
Each House shall be the Judge of the Elections, Returns and Qualifications of its own Members, and a Majority of each shall constitute a Quorum to do Business; but a smaller Number may adjourn from day to day, and may be authorized to compel the Attendance of absent Members, in such Manner, and under such Penalties as each House may provide.


I am not aware of any SCOTUS ruling that says that the authority to compel attendance only applies when there is no quorum. It is within the rights of each house to expel those who dont show up, so long as the rules have already been established before the infraction, and I argue that such rules should be written, at least in the House. I am more understanding of absences in the Senate where members normally serve for much longer and where there is still someone else providing representation to the citizens effected.
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Sun 29 Jan, 2012 11:10 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
Bullshit, each member does not have the authority to decide for themselves to not show up and participate in Congress

Then show me where the formal attendance requirement is written.

Throughout the past year, Giffords Congressional offices, for which she was responsible, continued to serve her constituents needs and to address their concerns, and her Web site additionally provided constituents with educational services, news, notices of events, etc.
She was present to vote on the debt ceiling bill.
She also had introduced legislation two days before she was shot, and that bill passed, unanimously, minutes after she submitted her resignation.
Her Congressional district was not deprived of the services of a representative in the House--duties associated with her office were continued during her recovery.


She didn't violate any formal written attendance requirement--because there isn't any.
Quote:
It is within the rights of each house to expel those who dont show up

Then the place would be empty. Laughing

These people spend a lot of time doing things other than sitting in Congress--including running around raising money and running for re-election because their term is only two years. They go off on trips, jaunts, meetings. etc. They spend time in their districts meeting with people. They meet with lobbyists and people who represent the interests of their districts. They have obligations to their parties and various political functions. And they have very short work weeks in addition to the time that Congress isn't even in session.
Voting on legislation is probably the least that most of them do time-wise, and one of the least important things to their constituents according to surveys.


hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 29 Jan, 2012 11:16 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Then show me where the formal attendance requirement is writte


It has not been, but should be done now, so that we don't have to put up with self indulgent stunts like Giffords pulled. We need to have a the legal means to compel Representatives to represent their districts, and the Constitution allows for this. Although all that we can mandate is that they show up in chambers, we can not make them vote and we can not make them vote as their district wants them to vote, still this is better than what we have now.

Giffords could have been removed if the rule had been written after it was made clear that she had no intention of doing the right thing, so I dont accept any assertion that it was not possible to get her district represented sooner than the 18 months that it will end up taking.
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 29 Jan, 2012 11:23 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Her Congressional district was not deprived of the services of a representative in the House--duties associated with her office were continued during her recovery.
Can you name one thing that was happening for the citizens when she was nominally still in the job that is not happening now that she is officially gone? She probably still gets the once a week phone call to inform her of what the office is doing so the only difference is that she is no longer getting a paycheck and her name has been taken off the office door. Your claim that she was representing her district is an utter fabrication.
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 29 Jan, 2012 11:25 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Then the place would be empty


I still dont have a list of those who have missed 99.7% of the votes in a years time, so I dont know how empty it would be. Get me the list and then we will talk.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Sun 29 Jan, 2012 11:40 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
Giffords could have been removed if the rule had been written

So your entire argument in this thread has been bullshit because there was no basis in reality for any of it.

Giffords did exactly what others have done in similar circumstances when they have required unanticipated medical care and a period of recovery. And the choice regarding resignation was hers to make.There were no rules about it governing her.

She was not bound by your personal, and highly subjective, notions of "honor" or "duty" or "attendance" or any of the other things you've come up with as your reasons that she should have resigned sooner.
Quote:
We need to have a the legal means to compel Representatives to represent their districts, and the Constitution allows for this.

It sure does. You can vote them out of office if they run for re-election.



0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jan, 2012 11:57 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
Can you name one thing that was happening for the citizens when she was nominally still in the job that is not happening now that she is officially gone?

As far as I know, there will be no Congressional district offices to handle constituents needs and inquiries, or to register constituents opinions on any pending legislation in Congress. Who would run or fund them? Those were her offices with her staff and they are being closed.
And those offices are a major source of assistance for constituents who have problems with Social Security, Medicare, and any other benefit program, or department, involving the federal government. Constituents care more about that sort of direct assistance then they care about whether the representative is in Washington voting on a bill that doesn't pertain to them in any way.
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Mon 30 Jan, 2012 12:32 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
so that we don't have to put up with self indulgent stunts like Giffords pulled.

Right, being the target of an assassination attempt was really a "self-indulgent stunt".
http://kara.allthingsd.com/files/2008/05/thumbs-down.jpg
You do realize she was shot while performing the duties of her office--meeting with her constituents. And yet you personally begrudge her the time she needed and took for her recovery? Rolling Eyes
And, under federal employees workman's compensation she was fully entitled to receive benefits following her injuries and during her recovery.
Quote:
Loughner mental report due Wednesday
Posted Jan 23, 2012
Dylan Smith
TucsonSentinel.com

A report on prison doctors' efforts to restore Jared Loughner's fitness for trial is due to be filed with a federal court Wednesday.

Psychologist Christina Pietz was ordered to update U.S. District Judge Larry Burns on Loughner's progress.

Burns has previously ruled that Loughner was not competent to stand trial, but that doctors at a Bureau of Prisons hospital in Missouri, including Pietz, were likely to restore the accused Jan. 8 shooter's ability to understand the charges against him and cooperate with his attorneys.

Loughner faces 49 federal counts in what authorities charge was an assassination attempt on U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords on Jan. 8, 2011. Fourteen of the charges carry a possible death penalty.

Loughner's current stay at the prison hospital is scheduled to end Feb. 8. A hearing on extending his time there is likely to be set after the mental health report is filed.

Petiz's report will not be publicly released due to privacy rules. Details of her previous reports have been discussed in court hearings.

Doctors have testified that Loughner, 22 at the time of the attack, is schizophrenic, and suffers from hallucinations and delusional thinking.
http://www.tucsonsentinel.com/local/report/012312_loughner_report/loughner-mental-report-due-wednesday/

 

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