GROSSLY inappropriate judicial behavior...

caprice wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
So why not just beat the hell out of her?

I understand this happens in some cases.

But then that would not be rape. We are discussing rape!

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Frank Apisa wrote:
You are dismissing that component way too cavalierly, in my opinion.

I'm not sure I follow. Do you mean I am dismissing the sexual component too cavalierly? I'm not saying there is no sexual involvement for the rapist. There obviously is, but the sex act in and of itself is not a key component here. If the power aspect wasn't involved, there would be no reason for this type of rapist to rape.

Well -- it is a component -- and that is what we have been saying. Whether or not it is a "key" component -- is up for grabs. But it is "a" component. And it is "a" motivator -- which is what I said.

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Frank Apisa wrote:
You seem to want to make a separation that I simply do not see.

If you are correct, why not do all those things without the sex act.

I think my above response (within this message) addresses this comment.

It truly doesn't, Caprice -- because the response you gave above, as I mentioned earlier, really eliminated rape.

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Perhaps I haven't fully clarified my position. It isn't the sexual act in and of itself that the rapist is motivated by, ...

Well....neither Craven nor I have suggested it is the "sexual act in and of itself" that motivates the rapist -- so I'm not sure where that is coming from. It is "a" motivator -- and if it weren't -- and the only thing the monster is motivated by is terrorizing and controlling the victim -- there would be no need for the rape itself.

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but the power he obtains by forcing this physical act upon an unwilling individual. If it really was primarily about sex,

Once again, you are creating a straw man here. There has been absolutely no assertion that it is "primarily" about sex -- just that sex is a component.

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... then I would think the judge's comments would hold more validity.

Like Craven, I cannot imagine a context that would make the judge's comments even a tiny bit more valid. But I understand that it is possible to have the other opinion -- and you are welcome to it.

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I once worked with and befriended a man I was soon to learn had just gotten out of prison for rape. He appeared to be decent enough until he became focused on a certain type of woman. Then I saw his longing turn him desperate to be sexual with any such women he saw. As I say, not just any women, but only a certain type. I did not witness this man approaching any women at all. He did not share any of his plans with me. I was surprised, because he seemed to really be trying, to see his name in the paper one day: climbed through a kitchen window and raped a woman at knife point. I somehow don't see power as the motivating factor in his case. But I am no authority. Perhaps it could be explained so that I could see it; I don't really know.

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I agree that with certain rapist, power is what it is all about, and the fornication involved is not sexual, but rather, the highest expression of contempt which certain personalities can employ. To that extent, i agree with Caprice. However, the rape as power case has been overworked by the political rectitude gestapo. It has little to no relevance to a case such as EB describes. There was a serial rapist in the Northwest about whom i read many, many years ago. One of the leads that police used to track him down was from a woman he approached who reported that she sense something odd about him, but rather than the usual fear response, she behaved as though she were attracted to him (hoping to lure him into a more public area from which she could escape). Absent the fear he had anticipated, he quickly lost interest and left, even though he had begun to make threatening remarks, before being brought up short by a reaction he hadn't expected. His mother was loony, he lived with her, she defended him to the point of being charged with disrupting the police, and the author speculated that the rapist was motivated by the need to dominate women, and in the manner he considered most humiliating. In Ryan's book about the fall of Berlin, he cites numerous examples of German women being told by front line Russian soldiers that they were safe with them, but that they had better flee or hide, because the rear area troops were likely to rape them. I believe in those cases, it was simply a matter of opportunity to act with impunity. I would suspect that there are many, many reaons for rape, just as is the case with murder, assault--any crime of physical assault. I don't disagree with what Caprice describes, but rather consider it one of many explanations.

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That's interesting, Setanta.

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I know I don't always articulate my thoughts in a manner that fully shares my thoughts but come on here!!!!

Frank Apisa wrote:

But then that would not be rape. We are discussing rape!

And so was I!!!!!!! It DOES happen in some cases that the victim is beaten AND raped, as in the aforementioned case that started this thread.

Frank Apisa wrote:

It truly doesn't, Caprice -- because the response you gave above, as I mentioned earlier, really eliminated rape.

My response didn't eliminate rape. If you read my first post in this subject, I said there are those "who think rape is some sort of lust-filled act and not one of terror, control and humiliation of the victim."

Yes there is a sexual component in violent rape. I said that already. But if you honestly believe that sex is the primary motivator for this type of rape, why doesn't the guy go out and get a hooker? The sexual act is PART of rape but not THE motivating aspect. I feel like a broken record here. He gains sexual excitement from the power he gains over his victim. That excitement enables him to violate the victim sexually.

Craven, you're taking my comments one sentence at a time and out of context. WHERE did I say the two were mutually exclusive? I'm saying that sex is NOT the primary motivation.

Craven de Kere wrote:

Sexual acts with unattractive people happen all the time. One's unattractiveness has nothing to do with teh possibility of the act.

This does not even address the vastly differing tastes."

PLEASE tell me you don't mean that a rapist selects his victim on his particular tastes?! I hope I'm completely wrong on that assumption, because if I'm not, then no further discussion with you is needed on this topic.

Frank Apisa wrote:

Well....neither Craven nor I have suggested it is the "sexual act in and of itself" that motivates the rapist

You did make the comment that "Sex is a motivator -- although control, domination, and plain violence are huge ingredients." I took that to mean the latter are huge ingredients in the rape act. Not as ingredients in the motivator.

As my final comment, let me provide a quote for you from a web site at Yale University. Surely all of you can agree that Yale is not a mickey mouse institution and that scholarly thoughts from Yale, while open to debate, could be considered reputable.

Quote:

One commonly believed myth is that rape is primarily a sexual act. Persons with this belief often unintentionally place the victim on trial.

.....

Sexual desire is less a motivation for the man than violent aggression.

The source of the quote can be found at the following link:

The Psychology of Rape and the Rapist

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Setanta wrote:

I don't disagree with what Caprice describes, but rather consider it one of many explanations.

I did make this comment:

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I had seen a comment earlier in a different forum regarding different types (or degrees) of rape. I do agree with that one.

So I am in agreement with you.

I went on to describe violent rape. That is the crux of my commentary. You mentioned that rape as a power case was not relevant to the case described. Why wouldn't she be? Being kidnapped, beaten, robbed and raped sounds violent to me.

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When did i make mention of that, Caprice? I certainly don't recall it.

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Setanta wrote:

However, the rape as power case has been overworked by the political rectitude gestapo. It has little to no relevance to a case such as EB describes.

Perhaps I misunderstood? It just sounded to me as though you were saying "rape as a power case" "has little to no relevance to a case such as EB describes."

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Yes, and if you will look at the post immediately above the one you have quoted, you will see that EdgarBlythe (EB) describes a convicted rapist who seems to have been drawn to his crime by seeing a woman of a certain type, which was not necessarily a case of the type we have been discussing.

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Sentanta: Oh! Sorry, I'm reading the wrong one. My mistake.

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No problem, Boss . . . happens to me all the time . . .

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Walking into a minefield here. Yes, I think some rapists pick their (prey) by type. I do agree with most that some sex is involved in the motivation re many rapes. Certainly sometimes, even perhaps always, power, and per EB, some complicated motivation. Understand and agree with Setanta's points.

Re the judge, he was just an older guy, objectifying yet again. We all do it, to some extent, all the time, but learning on our own or from example has sharpened our sense of things. His was a blithe dismissal of an old hag, though younger than him by far.

I, being an old hag, am not a fan, but I'm not sure... that would have affected his review. Probably, but I'm not positive. Surgeons historically have made lots of vulgar remarks that would curl your toes in the operating room, much is said in jest, though of course inappropriate.

I would like to see the judge's history before jumping to the conclusion that he wouldn't have done right by the victim in real court time.

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You are right ossobuco. The judge may well have ran his courtroom in exemplary fashion, but, once his utterance became public knowledge, too many of us felt he could not be trusted to prove himself.

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Well, when all is said here, i will express my opinion on the "judge" in question, which i have not yet done. I think he is a scabrous old coot who has no business continuing to hold a position of trust. As the chief officer of the court, his duty to impartiality is higher than anyone else involved. He appears to me to be way past retirement age, and his expressed opinion throws considerable doubt, to my mind, on whether he was ever qualified to have held such a position of trust.

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Setanta wrote:

No problem, Boss . . . happens to me all the time . . .

Boss? *grins* I've never been called Boss before. Bossy maybe, but not boss. Very Happy

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No one answered my question (unless I overlooked...done it before!)...aren't state judges elected?

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ossobuco: If you read literature studying rapists, you'll find that sex is not the primary motivator in rapes. It's like Phoenix32890 said, sex is the vehicle.

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I bleieve that some, and perhaps most, judges in state courts are elected.

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Caprice said: "PLEASE tell me you don't mean that a rapist selects his victim on his particular tastes?! "

I am not quite sure what you mean here Capric, nor why you would react so strongly if Craven, or anyone, answered this question in the affirmative - as I am about to do. I suspect a misunderstanding of some sort is occurring.

I think it is quite clear that some rapists DO select victims according to their particular tastes - some serial rapists only rape very old women, some only blonde women with large breasts for example. Some are pretty indiscriminate - many not - they profile either widely, or narrowly.

Since the great majority of rapes are of people well known to the rapist, one can assume that certain characteristics decide who is raped - other than the obvious ones - (vulnerability and opportunity) - like youth (rapists who like children), pubescent girls (a common one) etc etc.

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I am not particularly interested in arguing about primary motivations. I think sex is a component of many rapes.

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GROSSLY inappropriate judicial behavior...

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