43
   

I just don’t understand drinking and driving

 
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2012 12:15 pm
@izzythepush,

OmSigDAVID wrote:
Your statement suggests someone arising from bed one morning
and declaring: " I shall make a mistake today! "
izzythepush wrote:
What's wrong with that?
In my conservative opinion,
its better to do things correctly.


izzythepush wrote:
I must make at least one mistake every day.
How many of them r planned ?



izzythepush wrote:
Usually it's something mundane, like forgetting to buy toothpaste at the supermarket.
Make a list n check it 2ice.





David
0 Replies
 
MMarciano
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2012 12:16 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
His name is actually pronounced Tom.

Personally I do feel bad for Thom but he did take someone’s life. Now if Barry had been a friend or relative of mine I would want some kind of justice. I don’t feel Thom should or will walk away from this with a slap on the wrist, he will do time.

The question is how much.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2012 12:17 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
How do we pronounce his name? Is it like Tom or like thread?


The "h" is silent.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2012 12:22 pm
@MMarciano,
Quote:
I don’t feel Thom should or will walk away from this with a slap on the wrist, he will do time.

The question is how much.

We will just have to wait and see. Playing guessing games about it, as some have been doing, is meaningless. The sentences can vary considerably, particularly if he accepts a plea deal.
MMarciano
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2012 12:24 pm
@firefly,
Very true, it will be all over town when it's handed down.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2012 12:30 pm
@firefly,
Quote:

We will just have to wait and see. Playing guessing games about it, as some have been doing, is meaningless. The sentences can vary considerably, particularly if he accepts a plea deal.


When educated guesses are routinely made we have a chance to see how educated the guessers are....I have said 13 years, now we wait to see how close I am to being right. While I might be wildly wrong here I tend to be very close to right a lot of the time.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2012 12:34 pm
@MMarciano,
MMarciano wrote:

Very true, it will be all over town when it's handed down.


Again showing how poorly you understand our "justice" system, there is no handing down of punishment in a plea deal, which is the way these cases are ended 90% of the time.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2012 12:37 pm
@hawkeye10,
He 's not pretending to be a lawyer.





David
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2012 12:42 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:

He 's not pretending to be a lawyer.





David


So? As citizens we have an obligation to monitor our government, everyone should know enough about our "Justice" system to know that sentences are rarely "handed down". To not know this is proof of dereliction of duty.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  5  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2012 12:43 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
now we wait to see how close I am to being right. While I might be wildly wrong here I tend to be very close to right a lot of the time.

You always have to make things all about you. Rolling Eyes

So, it's not about the sentence Thom will receive, and whether it will be fair and reasonable, it's about whether you will be proved right. Rolling Eyes

Some people posting here actually know this man, and may actually care about the sentence he receives. He's not a fictional character, and neither was the man killed in the accident. Whatever sentence Swift receives will affect his life, and the lives of those close to him. Whether you are right or wrong in your guess is totally meaningless--except to you apparently.
firefly
 
  4  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2012 12:46 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
Again showing how poorly you understand our "justice" system, there is no handing down of punishment in a plea deal, which is the way these cases are ended 90% of the time.

There is no handing down of punishment in a plea deal?

Part of the plea deal is an agreed upon sentence. Since when is a sentence not punishment?

And it is a judge who imposes or "hands down" that sentence.

You're the one who doesn't seem to understand the legal system.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2012 12:55 pm
@firefly,
A sentence is not imposed upon someone who agrees to it when they dont have to agree. There is no verdict in a plea deal, only the announcement of a deal to short circuit the process, so the court never passes judgment . We can not say that a decision of the court has been made other than that the court has accepted the short circuit.

EDIT: a more civilized society than ours would demand that the facts of the case be largely determined before the citizen is punished, but in the land of the cowboy what ever the state can bully the citizen into is considered a just result by the court almost always. We see this in the criminal side as well as the civil side, where Judges will rarely refuse to accept deals that the agencies of the Federal Government have worked out with corporations to settle disputes.
firefly
 
  3  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2012 01:10 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
A sentence is not imposed upon someone who agrees to it when they dont have to agree. There is no verdict in a plea deal, only the announcement of a deal to short circuit the process, so the court never passes judgment

Absolute rubbish.

The person enters a guilty plea. They are then convicted on the basis of that admission of guilt, and they are sentenced on the charges they have plead guilty to. The sentencing by the judge is the passing of judgment--it is the judge who imposes the sentence.

A jury verdict is neither necessary nor always desirable in resolving a criminal case.
Quote:
EDIT: a more civilized society than ours would demand that the facts of the case be largely determined before the citizen is punished, but in the land of the cowboy what ever the state can bully the citizen into is considered a just result by the court almost always.

Both sides do try to determine the facts of the case before sentence is passed.

Have you ever heard of a directed verdict?
Quote:
A directed verdict is not made by a jury. It is a verdict ordered by the court after the evidence has been presented and the court finds it insufficient for a jury to return a verdict for the side with the Burden of Proof. A court may enter a directed verdict before the jury renders its verdict. If the court allows the jury to make a verdict but then disagrees with the jury's evaluation of the evidence, the court can decide the case by issuing an order. For example, under rule 29 of the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure, a court can grant a judgment of acquittal to a defendant.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/verdict

And a judge can also decline to accept the terms of a plea deal.
Quote:
The Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure provide for two main types of plea agreements. An 11(c)(1)(B) agreement does not bind the court; the prosecutor's recommendation is merely advisory, and the defendant cannot withdraw his plea if the court decides to impose a sentence other than what was stipulated in the agreement. An 11(c)(1)(C) agreement, however, binds the court once the court accepts the agreement. When such an agreement is proposed, the court can reject it if it disagrees with the proposed sentence, in which case the defendant has an opportunity to withdraw his plea.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plea_bargain


And it is the defendant who choses to give up his right to a trial in exchange for bargaining on his sentence. If Thom Swift accepts a plea offer it will be because he feels that is in his best interest. He hired an experienced trial attorney, so he has the option of a trial and an attorney prepared to bring the case to trial.
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2012 01:13 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
The person enters a guilty plea. They are then convicted on the basis of that admission of guilt, and they are sentenced on the charges they have plead guilty to. The sentencing by the judge is the passing of judgment--it is the judge who imposes the sentence


Go to Europe and see if the state can get away with that.....the answer is no. More civilized people demand an accounting of the facts before citizens are punished, they do not allow the state to bully or terrorize the citizens into admissions of guilt with are then used as the sole basis for punishing them.
firefly
 
  4  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2012 01:38 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
Go to Europe and see if the state can get away with that.....the answer is no. More civilized people demand an accounting of the facts before citizens are punished, they do not allow the state to bully or terrorize the citizens into admissions of guilt with are then used as the sole basis for punishing them

There is nothing less civilized about our criminal justice system, nor is the issue at all relevant to the case we are discussing.

Meanwhile, you were absolutely wrong in saying that punishment is not imposed in a plea deal, and that the sentence does not reflect a judgment by the court.

You cannot use the defendant's admission of guilt as the sole basis for punishing him. There must be other evidence to support that admission of guilt.

In the case we are discussing, any admission of guilt that Swift made to the police in reporting the accident, that was not repeated after he was given Miranda warnings can't be used against him at all.
There must be evidence presented to the judge to support all the charges against him--that is the criminal complaint.

If the state had no evidence of guilt, to support the charges, why would a judge find probable cause? Why would anyone accept a plea deal?

If the state did not have evidence that Swift was DUI, or was even driving his car, why on earth would he choose not go to trial?
hawkeye10
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2012 01:49 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
You always have to make things all about you.

So, it's not about the sentence Thom will receive, and whether it will be fair and reasonable, it's about whether you will be proved right.


It is about public policy, and in the debate about public policy it is important to separate those who know what they are talking about from those who dont know the difference between their ass and a hole in the ground. You however are not capable of debating public policy without demonizing those who dont agree with you.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2012 01:58 pm
@firefly,
Regardless of what happens, even if the case is adjourned because a piece of Russian spacecraft hit the courthouse, rest assured, Hawkeye will claim he was right.
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2012 02:04 pm
@firefly,
Do u intend to respond
to my inquiry concerning your statements about talking to the police ?

or will u exercise your right to remain silent ?





David
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2012 02:09 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Regardless of what happens, even if the case is adjourned because a piece of Russian spacecraft hit the courthouse, rest assured, Hawkeye will claim he was right.


Until and unless you prove me wrong.....which I cant recall over happening.
izzythepush
 
  3  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2012 02:10 pm
@hawkeye10,
Exactly. You can't. Everyone else can.
0 Replies
 
 

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