43
   

I just don’t understand drinking and driving

 
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Sun 25 Dec, 2011 09:55 pm
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:
Leaving the scene of the accident is a criminal offence all by itself.
Maybe; maybe not.
"The first step in statutory interpretation is: read the statute."
I have not done that; maybe u did.
Its not likely to require that if someone has a collision
out on a lonely road, that he remain there until he grows old n dies.
It might be possible that calling the attention of the police
to the event as he did is legal; we don't know. (At least I don't.)





David



ehBeth
 
  3  
Reply Sun 25 Dec, 2011 10:00 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
It would appear that you haven't been in practice for some time.
hawkeye10
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 25 Dec, 2011 10:15 pm
@jcboy,
Quote:
That wasn’t reported in the paper.


Right, and in my opinion this is almost certainly on purpose to make him look as bad a human as possible. Publishing his name and address is done in the hopes that a mob will converge on his house. It is outrageous conduct on the part of the state, and it is very common these days...... it is the gratuitous exercise of power of the strong over the weak, it is the worst kind of sadomasochism in practice, IE non-consensual .
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Dec, 2011 10:22 pm
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:
It would appear that you haven't been in practice for some time.
I have not.
I have only practiced in NY.
I have not practiced in Florida.
Have u read the applicable statute ?





David
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  3  
Reply Sun 25 Dec, 2011 10:29 pm
@ehBeth,
OK Beth, I get that you don't have sympathy for people who drive drunk or get Aids from "being too lax" (I assume this means any unprotected sex).

I am curious about who you have sympathy for? Driving while tired causes a lot of accidents and most of us know when we are tired enough to effect our driving. What if this person were a shift worker who knew they were tired enough to increase their risk of having an accident and like this story they ran over a pedestrian?

Would you have any sympathy?
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Dec, 2011 10:29 pm
@ehBeth,

really? A sober driver can do that? My friend who almost never had a glass of anything, did not manage to do a decent job of preventing serious injury? She didn't see him.

Obviously I am for sober drivers. Sober drivers can mess up and and be messed up with.
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Sun 25 Dec, 2011 10:41 pm
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:
Interesting to see David have such a liberal [????] view of the situation.
I did not deviate from anything.





David
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Dec, 2011 11:18 pm
@ossobuco,
I'll buy your data and probably agree with you, but I do not yet know about the victim and his bloodwork.
And obviously I don't know about the scene stuff.

But on the face of it, you're pretty jumpy re the driver being in the wrong.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  2  
Reply Sun 25 Dec, 2011 11:24 pm
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:
That's not too difficult.

There is the evidence of the people he was with earlier in the evening.
I won't say that its impossible,
but I think its DIFFICULT, particularly bearing in mind
that this thread indicates friendly support for defendant.
The issue is fraught with uncertainty.
WHAT was seen by whom under what circumstances?
Did he accurately see how the drink was made? Sure of who drank it?
See it being drunk, or liquid being held in a hand?
Count the drinks?? What, if anything, did u see him EAT??
Any reasons to dislike defendant? Any disagreements with him?
"Do u remember how many drinks u had b4 u saw defendant drinking? Tell the jury what YOU had that nite.
How about your friends Joe Blow and Jane Doe? What did thay have that nite?"
How much time between drinx?? Coffee?
Did he get much exercise? Dancing??

I see a lot of room for uncertainty there.
Defense counsel coud have some fun with that.
If Thom's friends bear him good will, he shoud have a sweet ride.
("Well, u know, I was not paying that much attention to him.
I was distracted by yada, yada . . . .")



ehBeth wrote:
Also, a good set of toxicology tests will be able to pinpoint when he started drinking,
and if there was anything else in his bloodstream that could have impacted his ability to respond.
Was it administered? How soon after his drinking
to quell his state of alarm in his home??

Administered by M.D.s in a hospital?
Will medical expert testify?
Detour thru the Police Station ?

How much do u need to raise reasonable doubt in the minds of the jury?





ehBeth wrote:
A sober driver, with good reflexes, can do a decent job of preventing serious injury to someone who jumps in front of a car, let alone someone on a bicycle who might have been swerving (if we believe the things posters here are trying to add to the scenario).

People have to remember that cars can be dangerous. They are weapons when they are controlled by the wrong person.



Don't drink and drive.

If you do, don't expect sympathy.
Jurors who have done it themselves might possibly empathize with defendant.
I 'd not bet against it. Maybe human nature has changed since I retired.





David
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Dec, 2011 11:54 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
Publishing his name and address is done in the hopes that a mob will converge on his house. It is outrageous conduct on the part of the state, and it is very common these days......

Criminal courts are open to the public. The fact of his arrest is public knowledge since he had to appear in court to have bail set. Why is this "outrageous conduct on the part of the state"? I don't want the state to operate in secrecy or to hold people in custody secretly.

The story is newsworthy--someone was killed in a hit and run. Why shouldn't the newspaper print the names and addresses of all the people involved?

Driving while drunk is "outrageous conduct". Even without a DUI, leaving the scene of an accident is "outrageous conduct" after you've just hit a cyclist, and it s also a felony. The state didn't do anything but arrest the man for violating the law, and killing someone with his motor vehicle.

Under Florida law, not only do you have to remain at the scene, you have a duty to render aid to the victim.

Quote:
316.027. Crash involving death or personal injuries

(1)(a) The driver of any vehicle involved in a crash occurring on public or private property that results in injury of any person must immediately stop the vehicle at the scene of the crash, or as close thereto as possible, and must remain at the scene of the crash until he or she has fulfilled the requirements of s. 316.062. Any person who willfully violates this paragraph commits a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

(b) The driver of any vehicle involved in a crash occurring on public or private property that results in the death of any person must immediately stop the vehicle at the scene of the crash, or as close thereto as possible, and must remain at the scene of the crash until he or she has fulfilled the requirements of s. 316.062. Any person who willfully violates this paragraph commits a felony of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084. Any person who willfully violates this paragraph while driving under the influence as set forth in s. 316.193(1) shall be sentenced to a mandatory minimum term of imprisonment of 2 years.

316.062 Duty to give information and render aid.--

(1) The driver of any vehicle involved in a crash resulting in injury to or death of any person or damage to any vehicle or other property which is driven or attended by any person shall give his or her name, address, and the registration number of the vehicle he or she is driving, and shall upon request and if available exhibit his or her license or permit to drive, to any person injured in such crash or to the driver or occupant of or person attending any vehicle or other property damaged in the crash and shall give such information and, upon request, exhibit such license or permit to any police officer at the scene of the crash or who is investigating the crash and shall render to any person injured in the crash reasonable assistance, including the carrying, or the making of arrangements for the carrying, of such person to a physician, surgeon, or hospital for medical or surgical treatment if it is apparent that treatment is necessary, or if such carrying is requested by the injured person.

(2) In the event none of the persons specified are in condition to receive the information to which they otherwise would be entitled under subsection (1), and no police officer is present, the driver of any vehicle involved in such crash, after fulfilling all other requirements of s. 316.027 and subsection (1), insofar as possible on his or her part to be performed, shall forthwith report the crash to the nearest office of a duly authorized police authority and submit thereto the information specified in subsection (1).
http://www.jgcrimlaw.com/lawyer-attorney-1492066.html


The man faces a minimum sentence of two years, just for leaving the scene, if the DUI charge holds up.

ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Dec, 2011 12:19 am
@firefly,
I'm not just for this guy, am probably agreeing with all of you. Still wondering re the circumstances.
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Mon 26 Dec, 2011 01:03 am
@ossobuco,
Quote:
Still wondering re the circumstances.

It doesn't matter if the cyclist drove right in front of his car, osso. He still didn't stop and try to aid the cyclist, or immediately call for an ambulance, regardless of who caused the accident.

That Florida statute is pretty strict because you have a duty to render aid as well as remain at the scene.

The newspaper report said the cyclist bounced off his windshield and then fell back to the road, so it wasn't as though this man was unsure that he hit someone.

I can't imagine hitting someone with my car like that and not stopping to try to help them or calling for an ambulance, no matter how panicked I was, and, unlike Florida, the state I live in does not require me to render aid in that situation. How can you just leave someone injured in the street, without staying there and trying to get them help, when you've just hit them with your car? That's where I think I really lose all sympathy for this man.

ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Dec, 2011 01:06 am
@firefly,
ok, ok, you're convincing me.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Dec, 2011 01:48 am
@firefly,
Copied from Firefly's link:
Quote:
"(2) In the event none of the persons specified are in condition to receive the information to which they otherwise would be entitled under subsection (1), and no police officer is present, the driver of any vehicle involved in such crash, after fulfilling all other requirements of s. 316.027 and subsection (1), insofar as possible on his or her part to be performed, shall forthwith report the crash to the nearest office of a duly authorized police authority and submit thereto the information specified in subsection (1)."
I wonder if defendant can successfully apply this subsection
in exculpation of his departure from the scene.

Possibly, he can escape conviction of DUI, if he was drinking at home AFTER ax,
but b4 arrival of police and b4 testing for alcohol.





David

OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Dec, 2011 01:55 am
@firefly,
firefly wrote:
It doesn't matter if the cyclist drove right in front of his car, osso.



He still didn't stop . . .
Was there a witness
attesting that defendant did not STOP??

Maybe he stopped.





David
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Dec, 2011 02:03 am
Quote:
Florida Statute Section 316.027 also addresses the situation in which an accident results in the death of any person involved in the accident. If any person involved in the accident dies at the scene, then the offense of leaving the scene is a first degree felony punishable by thirty (30) years in Florida State Prison.
Under Florida law, the prosecutor must prove the following four elements in order to prove the offense of leaving the scene of a crash involving death:
The person charged with leaving the scene was the driver of a vehicle involved in a crash resulting in death of another person.
The person charged with leaving the scene knew or should have known that he was involved in a crash.
The person charged with leaving the scene knew or should have known of the injury to or death of another person.
Additionally, one of the following must be proven:
The person charged with leaving the scene willfully failed to stop at the scene of the crash or as close to the crash as possible and remain there until he had given "indentifying information" to the other driver, injured person, an occupant of the vehicle, or a person attending the vehicle and to any police officer investigating the crash; or
The person charged willfully failed to give or render "reasonable assistance" to the injured person if such treatment appeared to be necessary or was requested by the injured person.


http://www.criminaldefenseattorneytampa.com/PracticeAreas/DrivingTrafficOffenses/LeavingtheSceneHitandRun.aspx

Looks to me like his life is over.........
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Dec, 2011 02:15 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
Additionally, one of the following must be proven:
The person charged with leaving the scene willfully failed to stop [??]
at the scene of the crash or as close to the crash as possible and remain there until he had given "indentifying information" to the other driver, injured person, an occupant of the vehicle, or a person attending the vehicle and to any police officer investigating the crash; or
The person charged willfully failed to give or render "reasonable assistance" to the injured person if such treatment appeared to be necessary or was requested by the injured person.


http://www.criminaldefenseattorneytampa.com/PracticeAreas/DrivingTrafficOffenses/LeavingtheSceneHitandRun.aspx

Looks to me like his life is over.........
I woudn't bet on that.
What if he stopped peddling because he dropped dead b4 defendant hit him?
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Dec, 2011 02:21 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
I wonder if defendant can successfully apply this subsection
in exculpation of his departure from the scene.

I don't think so, because he failed to do this..."after fulfilling all other requirements of s. 316.027 and subsection (1), insofar as possible on his or her part to be performed"---that's the duty to render aid or summon aid for the injured victim, and he apparently did not do that at the scene.

According to the newspaper report, he admitted to police he fled the scene.

This is the record of his arrest, with his booking photo, from the Sheriff's Web site. It shows the arrest charges.
http://pcsoweb.com/InmateBooking/SubjectResults.aspx?id=1483326


firefly
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Dec, 2011 02:30 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
If any person involved in the accident dies at the scene

I believe the cyclist was pronounced dead at a hospital, not at the scene.
Quote:

Looks to me like his life is over.........


This man is in a great deal of trouble, but I don't think his life is over.

The cyclist's life is over.

0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Dec, 2011 02:33 am
@firefly,
I got it that he fled, big no no, and while fleeing, did not give aid.
I'm more interested in how the guy was hit.
Seems like alcohol with the driver, just wondering if it was not also with the cyclist.
There's such a penchant for blaming, pre facts. Of course, the penchant may well be right.

I'm not looking at legal stuff - I'm trying to figure out what happened
 

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