43
   

I just don’t understand drinking and driving

 
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 10:32 am
@ehBeth,
izzythepush wrote:
People do that with language all the time Dave.
OmSigDAVID wrote:
Yeah, without getting their points across,
without being INTELLIGIBLE. Is that what u want?

Is that acceptable to u ????????
ehBeth wrote:
you mess with language all the time with your own and off switch in regard to phonetics
Yes; I am endeavoring to show better,
more efficient ways to spell.
I hope to be an example on Internet fora, drawing attention to burdensome,
atavistic, inefficient aspects of English in an effort to accelerate
their abandonment and to promote English becoming a fully fonetic language.



ehBeth wrote:
you want people to try and make sense of your posts -
I have confidence that it is not much strain
to understand that the first 2 letters of the word u are unnecessary & unhelpful,
nor do u need the letters UGH to understand the word tho. Its not hard.


ehBeth wrote:
you should consider doing the same with other people's posts
I try to promote the use of logic
by pointing out deviations therefrom.







ehBeth wrote:
being deliberately obtuse about the normal use of language isn't helpful to your campaign - you want to keep definitions you like while asking others to put up with the spellings you're in the mood for on a particular day.
Sometimes, I try not to OVER DO it.
I don't wanna drive everyone nuts.



ehBeth wrote:
that is not acceptable to me.
I respect your right to your opinion.





David
firefly
 
  0  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 11:40 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
Yes; I am endeavoring to show better,
more efficient ways to spell.

You are just tailor made for the era of text-talk, David.
ehBeth
 
  3  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 11:53 am
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:
Yes; I am endeavoring to show better,
more efficient ways to spell.


we've gone over this several times.

I will try to explain it to you once again. Your use of phonetic spelling indicates that you do not understand that other people do not pronounce things the way you choose to.

Your better, more efficient ways to spell are useful only to you. They often make things more complicated for people who do not speak with your accent - and if they have never been exposed to it have to guess at what you are trying to say.

It is inconsiderate of you.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 02:51 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Why would someone found "not guilty" after trial be entitled to any financial compensation from the state? An acquittal does not mean that the charges were unjustified.
You want to legally compensate O.J. or Casey Anthony, or anyone else, who has been acquitted at trial?


Yes along with the tens of thousands of innocent citizens who was ruin financially by the state.

Sorry I do not care for the idea that the state even if it can not prove someone guilty of any misdeed still have the power to ruin people at the DA whim.

Oh footnote Casey was found guilty of lessor crimes so she would not had gotten a dime under my system.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 02:53 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
So, you feel that defense attorneys are all negligent in their obligations to clients?


Given the system we have now I am sure they are for the most part doing the best they can however the system is rigged in a way that I do not think the founding father would had dream of.

We need more balance and checks again the overwhelming power of the state.
0 Replies
 
EqualityFLSTPete
 
  3  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 04:43 pm
@stpetefriend22,
Quote:
I am not sure who you are,


I know who you are! It’s a shame Thom is going through this but I can only imagine what the family of his victim is going through! Maybe you learned something from this too, like sitting your ass on something other than a barstool!
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 05:13 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:

Yes along with the tens of thousands of innocent citizens who was ruin financially by the state.

Oh, the paranoia--the state is knowingly arresting and charging innocent people, by the tens of thousands just to ruin them financially. Did the voices tell you that? Rolling Eyes

Since 90% of criminal cases are resolved with plea bargains, perhaps most of those people were guilty, and they, and their defense attorneys, knew they would lose if they went to trial. Isn't that the case with most DUI's?

In your world, apparently, people never violate laws. No one is ever guilty.

How many "tens of thousands of innocent citizens" do you think have been arrested for DUI, just so the state could "ruin them financially"?

Do you think most people arrested for DUI with a BAC >.08+ really want to risk a trial ?
Lustig Andrei
 
  2  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 06:00 pm
@firefly,
Most of the people who are willing to accept the offer of a plea bargain do so because they're guilty as hell and will jump at the chance to plead gulty to a lesser charge to avoid a long prison term. That's what the whole concept of a plea bargain is all about. It works in the favor of both parties -- the state saves some money by not having to conduct a lengthy trial; the defendant gets a much reduced sentence. What's to complain about?
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 06:06 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Oh, the paranoia--the state is knowingly arresting and charging innocent people, by the tens of thousands just to ruin them financially. Did the voices tell you that?


Knowing or not knowing is somewhat beside the point however if you care for a case in point of that happening see the Duke players case.
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 06:08 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
Quote:
Most of the people who are willing to accept the offer of a plea bargain do so because they're guilty as hell


Would you like to back up that opinion by any studies?

Yes 90 plus percents of all people charge are as guilty as hell..............

Quote:
It works in the favor of both parties -- the state saves some money by not having to conduct a lengthy trial; the defendant gets a much reduced sentence. What's to complain about?


You hear of the charming and almost universal trend to way overcharge a case so anyone guilt or innocent might very likely fear taking a chance on a trial?
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 06:17 pm
@BillRM,
Did any of the Duke players take a plea bargain?
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 06:23 pm
@DrewDad,
Quote:
Did any of the Duke players take a plea bargain?



We was dealing with two subjects here having the state knowingly falsely charging men with crimes not plea bargains however would you care to have me post cases of innocent men and women who had taken plea bargains?
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 06:37 pm
@DrewDad,
http://www.fhsulaw.com/CM/LegalArticles/Plea-Bargain-Sentences-Tempt-the-Innocent-to-Plead-Guilty.asp


Plea-Bargain Sentences Tempt the Innocent to Plead Guilty


In a criminal trial, the prosecution bears the burden of proof. This means that to convict someone of a crime, the prosecution must demonstrate beyond a reasonable doubt that the accused person committed the alleged crime. This is an incredibly high burden of proof — and rightfully so. The American justice system strives to avoid punishing people without near-certainty that they have, in fact, committed crimes.

However, not every person accused of a crime ultimately demands that the government meet this standard. As a practical matter, many defendants opt out of trial without requiring the government to prove its case, instead electing to make a plea bargain with the prosecutor.

Some take this approach because the evidence is clear and they presume they will get lighter sentences if they cooperate with prosecutors. Others choose to plead guilty because of the financial costs of mounting defenses; legal fees add up quickly and for some defendants trials aren’t financially viable options. In what many fear is a growing trend though, some defendants avoid trial merely because the potential consequences of trial are too high. This is particularly true for unpopular defendants, such as those accused of defrauding thousands of stockholders or operating major financial scams.

DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 06:38 pm
@BillRM,
Was we? I guess we was.

The state does occasionally press charges against innocent people. They then have the chance to defend themselves in a thing called a "trial."
BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 06:43 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
http://www.constitution.org/lrev/roberts_wrongful.htm


In 1998, the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette summed up its investigative reports of prosecutorial misconduct as follows:

hundreds of times during the past 10 years, federal agents and prosecutorshave pursued justice by breaking the law. They lied, hid evidence, distorted facts, engaged in cover-ups, paid for perjury and set-up innocent people in a relentless effort to win indictments, guilty pleas and convictions. Rarely were these federal officials punished for their misconduct. . . . Perjury has become the coin of the realm in federal law enforcement. People’s homes are invaded because of lies. People are arrested because of lies. People go to prison because of lies. People stay in prison because of lies, and bad guys go free because of lies. (Moushey 1998, 40)

A new practice known as “jumping on the bus” has taken the prosecutorial ethic to the rock-bottom depth. Informants sell information on unsolved cases to an inmate, or prosecutors and federal agents feed this material to an inmate. The inmate memorizes the case, thereby seeming to have inside knowledge when he comes forward with information to trade in exchange for a reduced sentence. In the absence of evidence, this practice is used sometimes against a person only believed to be guilty. Sometimes it is used to close unsolved cases, and sometimes it occurs at an inmate’s initiative. Formerly, self-serving accusations by criminals were treated only as leads to be investigated. If the leads proved helpful, evidence still had to be marshaled. Today the accusation is the evidence. Thus, the criminal element itself has a big say in who goes to prison.

Weak and fabricated evidence suffices because seldom is it tested in court. According to the Justice Department, only approximately one case in twenty goes to trial; the rest are settled with pleas (Maguire and Pastore 1995, 461–63, 483–86). Conservatives believe that the problem with plea bargaining is that it permits criminals to get off too lightly, thus undermining the deterrent effect of punishment. However, the problem with plea bargains is far more serious.

Plea bargains have corrupted the justice system by creating fictional crimes in place of real ones. The practice of having people admit to what did not happen in order to avoid charges for what did happen creates a legal culture that elevates fiction over truth. By making the facts of the case malleable, plea bargains enable prosecutors to supplement weak evidence with psychological pressure. Legal scholar John Langbein compares “the modern American plea bargaining system” with “the ancient system of judicial torture” (1978, 8). Many innocent people cop a plea just to end their ordeal. Confession and self-incrimination have replaced the jury trial. Just as Bentham wanted, torture has been resurrected as a principal method of conviction. As this legal culture now operates, it permits prosecutors to bring charges in the absence of crimes.

Plea bargaining is a major cause of wrongful conviction. First, plea bargains undermine police investigative work. Because few cases go to trial, police have learned that their evidence is seldom tested in the courtroom. Carelessness creeps in. Sloppy investigations are less likely to lead to apprehension of the guilty party. Second, plea bargaining greatly increases the number of cases that can be prosecuted. Prosecutors have found that they can coerce a plea and elevate their conviction rate by raising the number and seriousness of the charges that they throw at a defendant. Counsel advises defendants that conviction at trial on even one charge can carry more severe punishment than a plea to a lesser charge. The sentencing differential alone is enough to make plea bargaining coercive.

A circularity of reasoning justifies plea bargaining. Without plea bargaining, the argument goes, the courts would not be able to handle the caseload. This argument is unconvincing. The obvious solution is to create enough courts to handle the case-load or to reduce the caseload by eliminating victimless crimes, such as drug possession and trumped-up charges based on regulatory interpretation. Without the war on drugs, asset forfeiture, and months-long court disputes over the meaning of a lengthy arcane regulation, there would be enough courts and judges to handle the serious crimes.

Every law, regulation, or reform has unintended consequences. A case can be made that the exclusionary rule changed the culture of the criminal justice system and led to the coerced plea bargain. By releasing criminals known to be guilty, the exclusionary rule turned the criminal justice system into a lottery for police, prosecutors, {573} and criminals alike. The result was demoralized prosecutors who began to see in the plea bargain a way to game the system back toward conviction. The unintended consequence of the exclusionary rule was cultural change. The criminal justice system deemphasized pursuit of the truth and focused on convicting the defendant.

Once we understand that the law has been lost, it is easy to understand why there are innocents on death row. As important as it is to get these innocents off death row, new victims of the system can be put there faster than innocence projects can rescue them. Moreover, the preoccupation with capital offenses and with cases in which DNA evidence can resolve the doubt about innocence leaves the vast majority of wrongfully convicted persons without a prayer.

To make a dent in wrongful conviction, we must rethink the approach. Innocence projects and law professors who find injustice a burden on the conscience can work to reestablish the inculcation of the ethic in law school, an ethic so well expressed by George Sutherland (Berger v. U.S. 1935) and Robert Jackson (1940): that the prosecutor’s duty is to see that justice is done, not to win convictions. If the law schools can be carried, so can the bar association and the journalism schools. Stories about wrongful prosecution should become a media priority.

Law schools must deal as well with the Benthamite influences that have eroded the “Rights of Englishmen” and have made law a weapon in the hands of government. If Benthamite collectivism, aided by deconstructionism and cultural Marxism, has undermined the legal principles that protect individuals from government power, nothing can be done about wrongful conviction until the Blackstonian principles are restored.

Progress against wrongful conviction also requires a return to constitutionalism. To many lawyers, “constitutional protection” means the granting of protected minority status by a federal judge. If antipathy to guns is more important that the Second Amendment, offense to preferred minorities more important than the First Amendment, and race and gender quotas more important than equality before the law, it is little wonder that a prosecutor’s conviction rate is more important than a fair trial and that justice plays second fiddle to clearing the court docket.

It is often said that Americans live under the rule of law. It is closer to the truth to say that Americans live under the rule of regulators. Theodore Lowi (1979) has argued that accountable law in the United States ceased seventy years ago with the delegation of law-making power to the executive branch in violation of the principle that a delegated power cannot itself be delegated. The people delegated law-making power to Congress, where under our system of government it must reside forever. First, however, law must be put back in the hands of Congress, an unlikely event when government is so large that it involves itself in every aspect of life. It is just as unlikely that trials will take the place of plea bargains as long as so many laws create so many crimes, and so few resources are devoted to courts and trials.

The problem of wrongful conviction is much larger than many of its antagonists appreciate. We will spin our wheels expending vast energies in freeing a few innocent people, and we must do what we can. But we also must gird for battle and restore the lost law. Once the “Rights of Englishmen” are no longer even a memory, justice will be gone as well.

JTT
 
  0  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 06:43 pm
@DrewDad,
Quote:
Was we? I guess we was.


Another ignorant asshole takes center stage.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 06:46 pm
@DrewDad,
Quote:
They then have the chance to defend themselves in a thing called a "trial."


And risk decades in prison and bankrupt their families when they are given an out of a short sentence or even time serve and they can walk?
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 07:16 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:

In a criminal trial, the prosecution bears the burden of proof. This means that to convict someone of a crime, the prosecution must demonstrate beyond a reasonable doubt that the accused person committed the alleged crime. This is an incredibly high burden of proof — and rightfully so. The American justice system strives to avoid punishing people without near-certainty that they have, in fact, committed crimes.

And, in a DUI case, all the state has to do is provide evidence that the defendant was driving with a BAC level>.08+ to meet that burden of proof.

And, since most people arrested for DUI know that the state can produce such evidence, they accept a plea agreement.

Are you trying to make a point that is in any way related to the topic of this thread?

0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 07:18 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
And risk decades in prison and bankrupt their families when they are given an out of a short sentence or even time serve and they can walk?

On a DUI that sounds like a pretty good deal. I'm sure that if Thom gets a deal like that, he'll take it.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  3  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 07:21 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:

In 1998, the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette summed up its investigative reports of prosecutorial misconduct as follows:

How many of these cases of prosecutorial misconduct involved DUI's?

Do you even know what thread you're posting in? Laughing
 

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