43
   

I just don’t understand drinking and driving

 
 
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 2 Sep, 2012 11:18 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
If you wrote that incoherent sentence while sober, you're in sad, sad, shape old man.


Poor baby I got you on the run as otherwise there would not be one Ad Honinien attack after another from you.

Firefly would you care to read the quote from the founder of MADD once more also?

Quote:
I thought the emphasis on .08 laws was not where the emphasis should have been placed. The majority of crashes occur with high blood-alcohol levels, the .15, .18 and .25 drinkers. Lowering the blood-alcohol concentration was not a solution to the alcohol problem."

— Candy Lightner, MADD Founder
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 2 Sep, 2012 11:34 pm
Quote:
http://www.motorists.org/dui/myths

We frequently hear that drunk drivers "cause 50% of all highway fatalities." This falls into the category of "tell a big enough lie long enough and loud enough and people will believe it."

The truth is closer to 10% of all highway fatalities are CAUSED by drunk drivers. This isn't good, but let's at least put the issue in perspective. Our government and certain self serving "non-profit" organizations have exaggerated this problem beyond any sense of reality to promote an agenda that eliminates basic individual rights, undermines our system of due process and heaps onerous penalties on people who have not injured anyone and may not have met any reasonable standard of "impairment."

So where do the numbers that we hear being repeated time after time come from? The "government speak" term is "alcohol-related." This term was created to deliberately mislead and confuse the general public about the magnitude of the drunk-driving problem. When you hear some "expert" state that 40 or 50 percent of all fatal accidents are "alcohol related," the intention is to make you believe that drunk drivers are responsible for causing all these fatalities. This is pure propaganda.

The federal government defines an alcohol-related fatal traffic accident as an accident where someone died and a person involved in the accident had some measurable amount of alcohol in his or her system. For example, a sober driver hits a pedestrian who has been drinking, even modestly. That's considered an alcohol-related accident. A sober driver rear-ends a driver that has had something to drink. That's considered an alcohol-related accident. A man has a drink before committing suicide in his vehicle. That's an alcohol-related accident. A driver has a single drink and is involved in a fatal accident that he did not cause. That's considered an alcohol-related accident. Do these sound like "drunk-driver-caused" accidents to you? That's what the government and the anti-drinking organizations would like you to believe.

In all motor vehicle accidents, where a driver is given a traffic ticket, or is arrested, only 7 % involve an alcohol-related violation. This number is far more indicative of the "drunk driver" problem.


Myth: Lowering the legal BAC limit for DWI will get the "drunks" off the road.

Truth: People at .1 or .08 are not automatically "drunks" and they are not the people who should be targeted for DWI enforcement. The average DWI violator is arrested with a BAC of .15 to .17 percent. Even in countries with extremely low legal BAC limits (e.g. Sweden at .02), the average DWI arrest involves a BAC of at least .15 percent.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Myth: Lowering the BAC to .08 % will reduce alcohol-related accidents.

Truth: This is partially true. Extremely low BAC standards do cause moderate responsible persons to avoid drinking and driving, and as a result there are fewer alcohol-related accidents because there are fewer people driving with some level of alcohol in their systems. However, because alcohol at low BAC concentrations is typically NOT the CAUSE of the accident, what we have is a commensurate increase in non-alcohol-related accidents. In other words, there are the same number of accidents, with a transfer of the alcohol-related to the non-alcohol related categories.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So Who Profits From This?

The anti-drinking and driving industry is interwoven throughout our private and public sectors. Whole federal and state bureaucracies are funded with your tax dollars for the sole purpose of making sure you get arrested for drunk driving, suffer accordingly, and repent for your anti-social behavior, namely drinking beer, wine, and or liquor. That no one was hurt, or even inconvenienced, doesn't matter!

Then there are the private organizations, most of which have abbreviations that end in "ADD." These groups gather in millions of dollars in donations to keep the war on drinkers focussed and intense. They can't afford to "solve" the problem. That would eliminate their reason to exist. They can't admit that folks with a .1% or .08% Blood Alcohol Content are not likely to be involved in a serious automobile accident. Nor can they afford to shift their attention to the chronic hard-core and dangerous drunk driver. This kind of person and his or her problems don't lend themselves to "cookbook" solutions and demagoguery.

In far too many areas, the courts and enforcement agencies have a vested interest in the arrest and conviction of drinking drivers, even though these drivers are not endangering themselves or anyone else. State laws are rampant with surcharges, fines, assessments and noble sounding gimmicks to extract as much money as possible from so-called "drunk drivers." Wages, salaries, capital improvements, and even retirement programs are increasingly dependent on traffic fines of all kinds. But, DWI fines, property forfeitures, and insurance surcharges that ultimately can reach several thousands of dollars are the real "pot of gold at the end of the rainbow."

At the onset of this discussion we acknowledged the need to address the true drunk-driving problem. But, the true drunk-driving problem will not yield to slogans, heart-rending stories, PR campaigns and ever lowering BAC standards. There are no "one size fits all" solutions. Medical treatment, counseling, supervision, ignition interlock devices, vehicle confiscation or incarceration are commonly available "tools."

What will not address the true drunk-driving problem is the harassment and abuse of a portion of the population that is not causing the problem. Unfortunately, the latter is the approach being taken by government agencies and anti-drinking organizations. This is evidenced by tactics such as roadblocks, diminished due process rights, absurdly low per se BAC standards, and tax-supported propaganda that distorts the real issues and misleads the public's understanding of the magnitude and real nature of this problem.

Go Back To DUI/DWI Home Page
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 2 Sep, 2012 11:40 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
At .08 BAC, a driver is 11 times more likely than the non-drinking driver to be involved in a crash.


wrong....the number is 2.69 times as likely as seen on table 1. .10 BAC is 4.79 times as likely. the currently desired by the killjoys .05 BAC is 1.38 times as likely.

http://www.saaq.gouv.qc.ca/t2002/actes/pdf/(06a).pdf

as you know my position is that .08 BAC is barely tolerable. Anything less would be offensive.
firefly
 
  3  
Reply Sun 2 Sep, 2012 11:50 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
The study data provide compelling evidence that alcohol (BAC) is a major factor in traffic crash causation. Risk of crashes increases at very moderate BACs, and it increases dramatically at high BACs, findings that are consistent with previous epidemiological andlaboratory studies.
The magnitude of the increase in relative risk that emerges when high
BACs are adjusted for non-participation bias is, however, a novel finding. The increases inrisk at BACs of 0.12% and greater are dramatically higher than those previously reported.
Even at a more moderate 0.08% BAC, the level that currently defines impairment for driving in most states, the relative risk is 42% higher than reported by the Grand Rapids Study(Allsop, 1966).
http://www.dunlapandassociatesinc.com/crashriskofalcoholinvolveddriving.pdf

Quote:
Why .08?

The research is clear. Virtually all drivers, even those who are experienced drinkers, are significantly impaired at a .08 BAC. As early as 1988, a NHTSA review of 177 studies clearly documented this impairment. NHTSA released a later review of 112 more recent studies, providing additional evidence of impairment at .08 BAC and below. The results of the nearly 300 studies reviewed have shown that, at a .08 BAC level, virtually all drivers are impaired in the performance of critical driving tasks such as divided attention, complex reaction time, steering, lane changing, and judgment.

The risk of being in a crash gradually increases as a driver’s BAC increases, but rises more rapidly once a driver reaches or exceeds .08 BAC compared to drivers with no alcohol in their blood stream. A recent study estimated that drivers at .08 to .09 BACs are anywhere from 11 to 52 times more likely to be involved in a fatal crash than drivers at .00 BAC, depending upon their age and gender.

Impairment and crash risk are the issues, not how many drinks it may take to get to a .08 BAC level. Numerous studies have indicated that at a .08 BAC level, virtually all drivers are impaired on critical driving tasks such as divided attention, complex reaction time, steering, lane changing, and judgment.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=16&ved=0CEMQFjAFOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nhtsa.gov%2Fpeople%2Finjury%2Fnew-fact-sheet03%2Ffact-sheets04%2FLaws-08BAC.pdf&ei=y0NEUOrkEsiK0QH9iIDwBg&usg=AFQjCNFhbm6H5DjvUW0FEJlCAL4cN9b46Q


BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 2 Sep, 2012 11:57 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
as you know my position is that .08 BAC is barely tolerable. Anything less would be offensive.


Do not forget Hawkeye they play games with what is consider an alcohol related crash.

The old standard of .1 seems to have all the safety margin needed and then some beside.

The problem is those who get hammer and reach BAC levels of 1.5 or greater and those can be spoted by the manner of thier driving there is no need for tieing up cops at check points to find them.

The more cops on the highways looking for those very dangerous drivers the safer we all will be not sitting at check points trying to ID someone with a few drinks in them.
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 3 Sep, 2012 12:01 am
@firefly,
Quote:
The risk of being in a crash gradually increases as a driver’s BAC increases, but rises more rapidly once a driver reaches or exceeds .08 BAC compared to drivers with no alcohol in their blood stream.


Raised rapidly after .08? From the graph I would say the rapid raise does not occur until well after .1 less alone .08!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://thenewprohibition.com/images/crash-risk-graph.png
hawkeye10
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 3 Sep, 2012 12:13 am
@BillRM,
Quote:
The more cops on the highways looking for those very dangerous drivers the safer we all will be not sitting at check points trying to ID someone with a few drinks in them.


in 2008 (the latest numbers i can find) there were about 30,000 dui arrests in my state.....this is a huge cash cow.

btw, that year 183 died in crashes that were called drunk driving though as you know no effort was made to find out how many of these deaths were caused by drunk driving. "alcohol was involved in the crash" only means that one or more people in the crash had the substance in them, it does not mean that the substance had anything to do with the crash. the lack of honesty in american discourse should at this point be legendary.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  3  
Reply Mon 3 Sep, 2012 12:23 am
@BillRM,
Quote:
Raised rapidly after .08? From the graph I would say the rapid raise does not occur until well after .1 less alone .08!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I suggest you rely on more data than just that single graph you compulsively keep reposting.
Quote:
The risk of being in a crash gradually increases as a driver’s BAC increases, but rises more rapidly once a driver reaches or exceeds .08 BAC compared to drivers with no alcohol in their blood stream.

That statement also comes from the NHTSA--the same source as your graph. If you regard them as such a valid source of info, consider everything they say regarding risk factors at a BAC of .08. You can track down and read the studies from which they draw their conclusions, they cite references.



hawkeye10
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 3 Sep, 2012 12:34 am
@firefly,
http://casr.adelaide.edu.au/T95/paper/figure/s9p2f4.gif
http://casr.adelaide.edu.au/T95/paper/s9p2.html

so keeping everyone at .10bac gave us an 86% reduction on risk, the current goal of .08 give us 96% reduction, but even this is not good enough for Firefly??!!

GO FLY A KITE!
firefly
 
  4  
Reply Mon 3 Sep, 2012 12:42 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
the current goal of .08 give us 96% reduction, but even this is not good enough for Firefly??!!

GO FLY A KITE!

I have no problem with a legal BAC level of .08, so what the hell are you talking about.

Or are you as high as a kite?

I'm interested in promoting responsible and safe driving.

You and BillRM seem more interested in promoting drinking. Drunk

You can both go fly a kite.

hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Mon 3 Sep, 2012 12:51 am
@firefly,
Quote:
I have no problem with a legal BAC level of .08, so what the hell are you talking about.


care to explain how the quote fits with your statement that anyone who is "alcohol impaired" should not be driving?

do you want us to believe that this is the first last and only time where you dont want to use the law to get the rest of us to follow your will? you aare honestly going to let someone do wrong by your books and you dont want them to be punished for it?

come on, you are too much of a sadist for that.
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 3 Sep, 2012 06:26 am
@firefly,
Quote:
If you regard them as such a valid source of info, consider everything they say regarding risk factors at a BAC of .08


Sorry thier facts are one thing their stated opinions driven by political considerations are another thing.

Hell would be out at high noon if a part of the Federal government would dare to bring questions up concerning a standard that the federal government force down the states throats.

The graph one more time............

Take note that the slope of the curve is fairly constant from 0 to .9 BAC and does not change to any great degree until well after 1.0.

http://thenewprohibition.com/images/crash-risk-graph.png
BillRM
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 3 Sep, 2012 06:29 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
come on, you are too much of a sadist for that.


That she is and I can picture her being happy if someone would had gotten a thirty years sentence for a few overdue library books. LOL
0 Replies
 
Keith424
 
  3  
Reply Mon 3 Sep, 2012 09:31 am
@firefly,
They do both sound like a couple of drunks. As I understand it one is a failed businessman and the other is on the same path.
hawkeye10
 
  -3  
Reply Mon 3 Sep, 2012 11:05 am
@Keith424,
Keith424 wrote:

They do both sound like a couple of drunks. As I understand it one is a failed businessman and the other is on the same path.


that's it? you cant think of even one thought which might add to the discussion??
BillRM
 
  -4  
Reply Mon 3 Sep, 2012 11:31 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
that's it? you cant think of even one thought which might add to the discussion??


Hawkeye a lot of people on this website should sign up for this free online Duke University course in my opinion.

Come to think of it would be kind of fun to have the two professors looks at the tactics that Firefly love to use here.


https://www.coursera.org/#course/thinkagain


Think Again: How to Reason and Argue
Walter Sinnott-Armstrong, Ram Neta

Reasoning is important. This course will teach you how to do it well. You will learn how to understand and assess arguments by other people and how to construct good arguments of your own about whatever matters to you.

November 2012 (12 weeks long)
Workload: 5-6 hours/week
Humanities and Social Sciences
About the Course

Reasoning is important. This course will teach you how to do it well. You will learn some simple but vital rules to follow in thinking about any topic at all and some common and tempting mistakes to avoid in reasoning. We will discuss how to identify, analyze, and evaluate arguments by other people (including politicians, used car salesmen, and teachers) and how to construct arguments of your own in order to help you decide what to believe or what to do. These skills will be useful in dealing with whatever matters most to you.
About the Instructor(s)
Walter Sinnott-Armstrong (right) is Chauncey Stillman Professor of Practical Ethics in the Philosophy Department and the Kenan Institute for Ethics at Duke University and Core Faculty in the Duke Institute for Brain Sciences. He has served as vice-chair of the Board of Officers of the American Philosophical Association and co-director of the MacArthur Project on Law and Neuroscience. He has published books on moral theory, philosophy of religion, theory of knowledge, and informal logic. His current research focuses on ways that psychology and neuroscience can illuminate moral beliefs and moral responsibility. He has regularly taught a course on reasoning for three decades.

Ram Neta (left) is Associate Professor of Philosophy at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. He has published dozens of articles on various topics in epistemology, including the nature and extent of our knowledge, the constraints that rationality imposes of on our states of confidence, the sorts of considerations that can serve as evidence for us, and how arguments for skepticism can come to seem compelling. He has also edited a number of recent and forthcoming volumes in epistemology. His current research focuses on understanding how epistemic constraints on an animal’s representational states can be determined by the essential properties of the species to which the animal belongs.
Course Syllabus
•Week One: How to Spot an Argument (and separate it from surrounding verbiage)
•Week Two: How to Untangle an Argument (or break it into parts and tell what different parts are doing)
•Week Three: How to Reconstruct an Argument (or arrange its parts to show how they are connected in a structure)
•Week Four: How to Evaluate an Argument Deductively (or determine whether its conclusion follows validly from its premises) – Part 1: Propositional Logic
•Week Five: How to Evaluate an Argument Deductively (or determine whether its conclusion follows validly from its premises) – Part 2: Quantificational Logic
•Week Six: How to Evaluate an Argument Inductively (or assess whether its premises provide enough reason to believe its conclusion) – Part 1: Statistical Generalization and Application
•Week Seven: How to Evaluate an Argument Inductively (or assess whether its premises provide enough reason to believe its conclusion) – Part 2: Causal Reasoning
•Week Eight: How to Evaluate an Argument Inductively (or assess whether its premises provide enough reason to believe its conclusion) – Part 3: Probability
•Week Nine: How to Evaluate an Argument Inductively (or assess whether its premises provide enough reason to believe its conclusion) – Part 4: Decisions
•Week Ten: How to Mess Up an Argument (or commit common but tempting fallacies) – Part 1: Vagueness and Ambiguity
•Week Eleven: How to Mess Up an Argument (or commit common but tempting fallacies) – Part 2: Irrelevance
•Week Twelve: How to Mess Up an Argument (or commit common but tempting fallacies) – Part 3: Vacuity
Recommended Background
This material is appropriate for introductory college students or advanced high school students—or, indeed, anyone who is interested. No special background is required other than knowledge of English.
Suggested Readings
Students who want more detailed explanations or additional exercises or who want to explore these topics in more depth should consult Understanding Arguments: An Introduction to Informal Logic. The text is also available in an e-book format.
FAQ
•Will I get a certificate after completing this class?
Yes. Students who successfully complete the class will receive a certificate signed by the instructor.

•What resources will I need for this class?
Only a working computer and internet connection.

•What is the coolest thing I'll learn if I take this class?
Nasty names (equivocator!) to call people who try to fool you with bad arguments.

0 Replies
 
Keith424
 
  4  
Reply Mon 3 Sep, 2012 11:44 am
@hawkeye10,
This thread is about drunks, I was pointing out the obvious two drunks in the thread. Where do you find the time to constantly post on a message board when you have a business to run? Or did the dump finally close?
BillRM
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 3 Sep, 2012 12:23 pm
@Keith424,
You should look into that course above but then it is unlikely that you can understand such concepts as Ad hominem attacks and why people who mount such attacks always end up looking like fools.

Even Firefly who mounts such attacks far more smoothly then you do end up looking like a fool with no arguments that she had any faith can hold up on their own worth.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Sep, 2012 12:33 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
Sorry thier facts are one thing their stated opinions driven by political considerations are another thing.

Then I guess you can't comprehend simple English. The info on crash probability at a .08 BAC level, that I posted from the NHTSA, was based on the findings of over 300 studies--that's where those facts were drawn from.

How many studies were used to obtain the data in that graph of yours? Do you even know?

There are hundreds and hundreds of studies in this area, and you remain obsessed with that one graph--either because those hundred and hundreds of studies must go right over your head, or because you're abysmally ignorant of the huge body of research in this area.

So tell me, since you are so fond of that graph, what does "relative crash risk" mean? How was "relative crash risk" determined for that particular graph? Is "relative crash risk" the same for all age groups over age 18? The same for both genders? Or are you, as I suspect, posting a graph you yourself really can't correctly interpret because you are unaware of the data it was drawn from and based on?
http://www.adrants.com/images/head_up_ass.jpg
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Sep, 2012 12:34 pm
@Keith424,
Keith424 wrote:
This thread is about drunks, I was pointing out the obvious two drunks in the thread. Where do you find the time to constantly post on a message board when you have a business to run? Or did the dump finally close?
Hi, Keith; its nice to meet u. My name's David. I 'm in NY.
True that the thread is about drunks,
but in my opinion, from my point of vu,
it is also about mercy. I think mercy can be good.


I hope that Tom will get off very lightly.
I have no way of knowing whether Barry wanted to be avenged.
If he DID, then I can see his point,
but for all we know he was a forgiving fellow; maybe.

I think that we can 't help Barry any more; he is beyond our reach,
but I don 't wanna see unpleasantness inflicted upon Tom Swift.
I really want to see him get off ez. If the D.A. arrives in court late,
after the judge has already dismissed the complaint, for no appearance,
then I 'll be happy!





David
 

Related Topics

Can a thread be removed or locked? - Question by BeachBoy
dui - Question by sylvia chomas
Drinking and Driving Tip.... - Discussion by Slappy Doo Hoo
 
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.44 seconds on 05/17/2025 at 02:22:33