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I just don’t understand drinking and driving

Forums: Drinking And Driving, Dui, Manslaughter, Thom Swift, Barry Lancaster
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OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2011 06:36 pm
@firefly,
DAVID wrote:
No. I expect that there are varying emotions n opinions, etc.
firefly wrote:
Well, initially you asked the question in a somewhat black/white manner,
as though there would be uniformity, or consensus,
I can understand a consensus: yes,
but a uniformity of agreement is highly unlikely.
I did not believe that what I wrote
woud be interpreted to mean unanimous opinion.
I was speaking in a very loose, informal way.




firefly wrote:
of agreement one way or the other.
This is what you said...
DAVID wrote:
Does your community support him or oppose him?

I'm not even sure what "oppose" would mean in that context.
It means DISAPPROVE, or hold in low esteem.
For instance, if a statute were about to be enacted
whereby something shockingly terrible were about to be inflicted
upon that community, presumably, there 'd be pervasively endemic condemnation thereof.



firefly wrote:
How many people approve of drunk driving--particularly an instance that allegedly involves a hit and run fatality?
I don 't know how many,
but I suspect that there 'd be a more ez going, non-vindictive attitude
among those jurors who had done it themselves.





David
0 Replies
 
jcboy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2011 07:30 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Well everyone is sort of keeping quiet about it. A few have said he wasn’t drunk when he left the bar and how it was the foggiest night of the year so far, which I did agreed with, it was foggy that night. Those who have said he wasn’t drunk are hard-core drinkers. IMO I still go with you can’t hit a person on a bicycle and have a human body hit your windshield and not know what you hit.

They changed the law about a year ago; the bars can stay open until 3am. Not sure why anyone needs to drink that late.

Most believe he will do some time, just not sure how much.
We will see.
Lustig Andrei
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2011 07:41 pm
@jcboy,
jcboy wrote:
They changed the law about a year ago; the bars can stay open until 3am. Not sure why anyone needs to drink that late.


Oh, I don't know. When I was still drinking and living in New York, the bars there stayed open until 4 a.m. and it was not uncommon for me to close one down at "last call." But when I was living in New York I wasn't driving, as a rule.
jcboy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2011 07:43 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
I heard they changed it here because they stayed open later in Tampa and when they closed the bars here everyone drove across the bridge to Tampa to drink.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2011 08:20 pm
@jcboy,
My question is did the cyclist had any lights on his bike as without lights you do not need to be drinking or driving on a froggies night to run into a bike.
jcboy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2011 08:32 pm
@BillRM,
That hasn’t come out yet. Nobody knows for sure what happened but Thom and he’s not talking. I’ll hear about everything I’m sure. This is a small community.

Not sure how long before the first court date, will interesting to see what his plea is.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2011 08:55 pm
@jcboy,
Quote:
Not sure how long before the first court date, will interesting to see what his plea is


I dont see much chance that Thom will be offered a reasonable deal, so he would have to plead "not guilty".

firefly
 
  2  
Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2011 09:10 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
you do not need to be drinking or driving on a froggies night to run into a bike.

Of course not, all those froggies jumping around on the ground make for a bumpy ride. Laughing
Lustig Andrei
 
  2  
Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2011 09:13 pm
@firefly,
Yeh, and they're noisy too. Keep you awake nights with their croaking.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2011 09:18 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
Quote:
you do not need to be...driving on a froggies night to run into a bike.

And you don't even need to be driving. Trying to escape the noise on foot you could run into a bike. Darn froggies.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2011 09:32 pm
@hawkeye10,
It looks to me that Thom is up for 15 years on the manslaughter and another 15 for the bogus "leaving the scene" charge. I dont know if there is a practice of allowing these to be served concurrently but I rather doubt it, making the sentence a possible 30 years. I dont see how anyone in their right mind pleads guilty to that, especially not a 44 YO, as that is effectively a life sentence.
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2011 09:35 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
It looks to me that Thom is up for 15 years on the manslaughter and another 15 for the bogus "leaving the scene" charge.

You know this on the basis of sentences actually handed out in Florida for similar cases?

I doubt that, since your "estimates" are way, way off.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2011 09:37 pm
@jcboy,
jcboy wrote:
Well everyone is sort of keeping quiet about it. A few have said he wasn’t drunk when he left the bar and how it was the foggiest night of the year so far, which I did agreed with, it was foggy that night. Those who have said he wasn’t drunk are hard-core drinkers. IMO I still go with you can’t hit a person on a bicycle and have a human body hit your windshield and not know what you hit.

They changed the law about a year ago; the bars can stay open until 3am. Not sure why anyone needs to drink that late.

Most believe he will do some time, just not sure how much.
We will see.
U know, something that is very severe
about that is that in many jurisdictions, conviction of a felony
results in automatic revocation of professional licenses,
so that e.g., a medical doctor or a lawyer is out of business.
( I have never approved of that. )
In my opinion, that might be a kind of capital punishment.
Do u know if he is in danger of that?
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2011 11:55 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:

Quote:
It looks to me that Thom is up for 15 years on the manslaughter and another 15 for the bogus "leaving the scene" charge.

You know this on the basis of sentences actually handed out in Florida for similar cases?

I doubt that, since your "estimates" are way, way off.

these are the publish max's, and they do hand out the max

Quote:
She told Pinellas-Pasco Circuit Judge Cynthia Newton before the judge sentenced Storey to the maximum of 15 years in prison, "it'll be over for him then but it'll never be over ever for me and my family."

Thiel said the close-knit family was so devastated by the accident they haven't put up Christmas or Halloween decorations since Harrell was killed in August 2009, because it would just remind them that he can't be there to enjoy the celebrations.

"Life's just not the same and never will be," Thiel said. She said his mother and father were too devastated to come to the sentencing.

Storey, 41, an engineer from Kenneth City who is married and has a young son, sobbed as he apologized to Harrell's family.


http://www.tampabay.com/news/courts/criminal/pinellas-man-gets-maximum-sentence-in-dui-manslaughter-case-that-killed/1188639

Quote:
LARGO — Jill Smith is glad it's over.

On Tuesday, the man who hit and killed her 84-year-old father two years ago as he tried to cross Missouri Avenue in a mobility scooter received the maximum prison sentence.

Forgoing a trial that was to begin Tuesday morning, Angus T. Davis III of Clearwater pleaded guilty to DUI manslaughter. Pinellas-Pasco Circuit Judge Cynthia Newton sentenced Davis to 15 years in prison.


http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/15-years-for-dui-manslaughter-that-killed-decorated-world-war-ii-vet-on/1064805
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Dec, 2011 12:08 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
firefly wrote:
Quote:
It looks to me that Thom is up for 15 years on the manslaughter and another 15 for the bogus "leaving the scene" charge.

You know this on the basis of sentences actually handed out in Florida for similar cases?

I doubt that, since your "estimates" are way, way off.

these are the publish max's, and they do hand out the max

Quote:
She told Pinellas-Pasco Circuit Judge Cynthia Newton before the judge sentenced Storey to the maximum of 15 years in prison, "it'll be over for him then but it'll never be over ever for me and my family."

Thiel said the close-knit family was so devastated by the accident they haven't put up Christmas or Halloween decorations since Harrell was killed in August 2009, because it would just remind them that he can't be there to enjoy the celebrations.

"Life's just not the same and never will be," Thiel said. She said his mother and father were too devastated to come to the sentencing.

Storey, 41, an engineer from Kenneth City who is married and has a young son, sobbed as he apologized to Harrell's family.


http://www.tampabay.com/news/courts/criminal/pinellas-man-gets-maximum-sentence-in-dui-manslaughter-case-that-killed/1188639

Quote:
LARGO — Jill Smith is glad it's over.

On Tuesday, the man who hit and killed her 84-year-old father two years ago as he tried to cross Missouri Avenue in a mobility scooter received the maximum prison sentence.

Forgoing a trial that was to begin Tuesday morning, Angus T. Davis III of Clearwater pleaded guilty to DUI manslaughter. Pinellas-Pasco Circuit Judge Cynthia Newton sentenced Davis to 15 years in prison.


http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/15-years-for-dui-manslaughter-that-killed-decorated-world-war-ii-vet-on/1064805
It seems to me that is capital punishment,
if his professional license as an engineer is revoked.
When he gets out, he finds a world of nothing.
All of his life's preparatory efforts have been voided.
Maybe he can find a job selling shoes or apples,
or leave America in hope of a better life.

Whether he deserves that is another question (maybe he DOES),
but we shoud be aware of how severe it actually is.

ARGUABLY, a murderer who is killed
is better off than someone who is condemned to live like THAT.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Dec, 2011 01:24 am
@OmSigDAVID,
In the first case you cited, the defendant received the maximum sentence because he had two previous DUIs.
Quote:
But Newton, who presided at the trial this May in which Storey was found guilty, said her decision was not based just on the night when Storey rear-ended Harrell's pickup on Interstate 275 west of the Howard Frankland Bridge.

Newton said she also based her decision on the fact that Storey had two previous DUI cases, which showed a pattern of behavior.

"I do believe that the just sentence in this case is the maximum sentence," Newton said.
http://www.tampabay.com/news/courts/criminal/pinellas-man-gets-maximum-sentence-in-dui-manslaughter-case-that-killed/1188639


In the second case also, there was a previous DUI, and an extremely high blood alcohol level, and the person who was killed was riding in a mobility scooter and was dragged under the car for some distance.
Quote:
Largo police said Davis struck Schaffer's scooter on the left side, wedging it underneath the center and right front bumper of the 1997 GMC Sierra pickup truck he was driving. Police say Davis traveled 146.6 feet before reacting to the crash.

At the time of the accident, Davis had a blood-alcohol level of 0.348, which is four times the level at which a driver in Florida is presumed to be impaired. Davis had a 1992 DUI conviction.
http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/15-years-for-dui-manslaughter-that-killed-decorated-world-war-ii-vet-on/1064805


The maximum sentence is generally not imposed unless other factors, such as previous DUIs, or other variables, influence the sentencing.

There is a mandatory minimum sentence of 4 years on DUI manslaughter in Florida, so the man in the case we have been discussing in this thread might expect to do at least that much, but that also depends on whether the man on the bike would have been visible to a sober driver, etc.

We actually don't know enough about the facts of this case to guess at any sentence this man might receive.

firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Dec, 2011 01:32 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
U know, something that is very severe
about that is that in many jurisdictions, conviction of a felony
results in automatic revocation of professional licenses,
so that e.g., a medical doctor or a lawyer is out of business.

Quote:
It seems to me that is capital punishment,
if his professional license as an engineer is revoked.

Whether licenses are revoked is up to state licensing boards. And the person can apply to have the license reinstated at a later time, so, in some cases, they might be able to get their license back.

More of a reason not to drink and drive if you hold a professional license and value it.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Dec, 2011 02:19 am
@firefly,
firefly wrote:
In the first case you cited, the defendant received the maximum sentence
because he had two previous DUIs.
In my personal opinion, it is significant that no one was harmed
in those DUIs.




firefly wrote:
In the second case also, there was a previous DUI, and an extremely high blood alcohol level, and the person who was killed was riding in a mobility scooter and was dragged under the car for some distance.
Quote:
Largo police said Davis struck Schaffer's scooter on the left side, wedging it underneath the center and right front bumper of the 1997 GMC Sierra pickup truck he was driving. Police say Davis traveled 146.6 feet before reacting to the crash.

At the time of the accident, Davis had a blood-alcohol level of 0.348, which is four times the level at which a driver in Florida is presumed to be impaired. Davis had a 1992 DUI conviction.
http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/15-years-for-dui-manslaughter-that-killed-decorated-world-war-ii-vet-on/1064805


The maximum sentence is generally not imposed unless other factors, such as previous DUIs, or other variables, influence the sentencing.

There is a mandatory minimum sentence of 4 years on DUI manslaughter in Florida, so the man in the case we have been discussing in this thread might expect to do at least that much, but that also depends on whether the man on the bike would have been visible to a sober driver, etc.

We actually don't know enough about the facts of this case to guess at any sentence this man might receive.
I agree that we don't.
I ask myself:
in a drunken driving accident
shoud we, in practical effect, kill the survivor
on the grounds that he caused the collision?

If the victim were a good friend of mine,
then maybe I 'd think that we shoud do so.

If all parties to the collision were DUI,
then it seems purely a question of chance
qua who hit whom first. Yes?

How does the justice of the situation lay out,
if the survivor of ax has a b.a.c. level of .16
and decedent has .35 b.a.c.???
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Dec, 2011 02:27 am
@firefly,
Quote:
There is a mandatory minimum sentence of 4 years on DUI manslaughter in Florida, so the man in the case we have been discussing in this thread might expect


and a 21 month mandatory min on the leaving the scene charge, that gets him to 6 years. 6-30, my guess is that that offer him 13 years and he takes it because of the threat of 30. He will be 57 when he gets out. Maybe he will have a few decent years left.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Dec, 2011 02:36 am
@firefly,
DAVID wrote:
U know, something that is very severe
about that is that in many jurisdictions, conviction of a felony
results in automatic revocation of professional licenses,
so that e.g., a medical doctor or a lawyer is out of business.

DAVID wrote:
It seems to me that is capital punishment,
if his professional license as an engineer is revoked.
firefly wrote:
Whether licenses are revoked is up to state licensing boards.
Not in MY State.
Revocation is automatic upon conviction of a felony.
I suspect that it is similar in many other jurisdictions,
tho I 've not taken any survay.




firefly wrote:
And the person can apply to have the license reinstated at a later time,
so, in some cases, they might be able to get their license back.
If he has not committed suicide by then; many folks woud find that preferable.





firefly wrote:
More of a reason not to drink and drive if you hold a professional license and value it.
That is INTENTIONAL.
The legislature is trying to create a hell on earth
for anyone who violates the statute, as an in terrorum instrument.

It woud be LESS EFFECTIVE on high school dropouts.
 

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