I just don’t understand drinking and driving

@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

Maybe his life is difficult because of the revulsion most people feel about drunk driving, that's nothing to do with the state.

In more civilized parts of the world the state waits till they have a conviction before they blow the horns. There is no good reason for Thom's arrest to be public knowledge at this stage.

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@hawkeye10,

Oh well I agree with you on that, but America has a completely different approach to sub judice, but these things have a habit of getting out anyway, people like to gossip.

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@BillRM,

Quote:

Until and if it is shown that Swift BAC levels whatever they happen to had been have any likely affect on the accident and the death of the cyclist happening or not the automatic manslaughter charge is not justify.

You are aware that he was driving illegally if his BAC level was +.08, aren't you? He should not have been behind the wheel--period.

The state does not have to show the effects of the BAC as a contributory factor in the collision--the fact that a .08 BAC impairs driving ability is considered to be already understood--and that is the way Florida law reads. In this particular case, because a death was involved, it is possible that a blood sample was also taken, and not just a breath analysis.

But, the DUI law Swift chose to violate, also says the state does not have to prove the specific influence of alcohol in a DUI accident. It was Swift's choice to violate this law--as it is written. So, complaining, after the fact, about the state not proving something they legally don't have to prove, according to the law Swift violated, makes no sense at all.

He was the one who violated the DUI law. He contributed to the death of another human by hitting him with his car--while drunk--so the DUI manslaughter charge is justified.

Swift is fully responsible for getting himself into his present situation.

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

Quote:

America has a completely different approach to sub judice...

They don't publicize the names of those arrested for drunk driving in the U.K.?

I just found this.
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/international/care-arrested-for-third-time-following-drinkrelated-incident-7536404.html

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@firefly,

Quote:

You are aware that he was driving illegally if his BAC level was +.08, aren't you? He should not have been behind the wheel--period.

If that is true then he is clearly guilty of DUI however unless there is a showing that his drinking impact in a meaningful manner the accident and the death there is no logic in punishing him for manslaughter.

Someone can do all kind of stupid and illegal behaviors around an accidental death however you need to and you should need to show that the stupid and illegal behaviors have some connection to the death.

If instead of drinking before the accident he had driven after not sleeping for 48 hours you would had to have shown the impairment in driving skill was a primary cause of the accident and that is the way if should be with drinking.

Oh if he was driving with no sleep and no license and having no right to be behind the wheel you still would need to show he did so in a completely reckless manner that result in the accident before finding him guilty of a manslaughter charge.

If the likelihood of the accident happening with the same results if the BAC had been zero it make no sense to punished him as if it did.

Our laws should be base on commonsense.

1 Reply

@firefly,

I also said that people like to gossip, not every case is gagged, it depends how serious it is. There would be a lot of interest in that case, him people in the public eye, but more importantly he's not killed anyone. It's unlikely that someone charged with homicide would be named, unless they were being held on remand.

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@BillRM,

Quote:

Someone can do all kind of stupid and illegal behaviors around an accidental death however you need to and you should need to show that the stupid and illegal behaviors have some connection to the death.

The "stupid and illegal behaviors" in this case caused the death. The cyclist would not have died if Swift's car did not hit him--that's manslaughter--the car was the weapon of death--Swift is responsible for the operation of the vehicle.

If you can't see the connection between Swift's behavior and the man's death, you're in sad shape.

Quote:

however unless there is a showing that his drinking impact in a meaningful manner the accident and the death...

I already told you, in my previous post, that, under Florida DUI law, the specific effect/influence of the alcohol does not have to be established in a DUI accident where there is evidence the driver was impaired by a BAC level +.08. . And that was the law Swift chose to violate. No one made him violate that law--he chose to do so. And that makes his charge DUI manslaughter.

2 Replies

@firefly,

in hopes of changing tacks here...

this is very similar to the laws that say if someone else dies during the commission of a felony, the felon is then guilty of murder.

every decision has consequences.

driving drunk is no different...

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@firefly,

Quote:

in this case caused the death

.

Sorry you and I do not know any of the details of the accident so we have no clue if the best sober driver in the world could had avoided hitting the cyclist or not that morning,

Knowing what I know concerning the high risk behaviors of most cyclists at night I would place the odds as at least even that impair driver or not the accident would had occur.

If the impairment of the driver did not cause his car to hit the cyclist it make no sense to punish him as if it did no matter what his BAC might had been.

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@Rockhead,

Quote:

this is very similar to the laws that say if someone else dies during the commission of a felony, the felon is then guilty of murder.

every decision has consequences.

I have moral problems with that law also in most cases where the death we are talking about is one of the other bad actors in the crime.

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@BillRM,

it occurs to me that you mostly have a moral problem with personal responsibility...

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@Rockhead,

Quote:

it occurs to me that you mostly have a moral problem with personal responsibility...

I had problems with the senseless punishment for deeds not done and manslaughter in all other cases would need a showing of causes and effects such as driving after not sleeping for 48 hours being a main cause of hitting the cyclist.

It is no less and not more a personal responsibility issue driving without two nights sleep as driving after five drinks.

There is nothing magic about the irresponsible act of drinking and driving that make it worst then driving without sleep or others irresponsible acts around driving.

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@BillRM,

people don't go without sleep for nightly entertainment.

personal responsibility.

think about it while I'm gone.

because I'm gone...

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@BillRM,

Quote:

There is nothing magic about the irresponsible act of drinking and driving that make it worst then driving without sleep or others irresponsible acts around driving.

And, if you fall asleep at the wheel, and hit and kill someone, you'll face vehicular manslaughter charges too.

People are responsible for their behavior behind the wheel of a car--and for not driving in any impaired condition--including DUI.

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@Rockhead,

Quote:

people don't go without sleep for nightly entertainment.

personal responsibility.

think about it while I'm gone.

because I'm gone...

BYE BYE........

Now as a young man I decided to work to the last minute before leaving for college and do it for 16 hours straight on top of it.

Now after a day and a half on the road with almost no breaks I was as impair as anyone with five drinks and somehow I do not see how it would had been better or more moral to be driving in that state in order to get the last dollars possible in my summer job or drinking five drinks for the fun of it and getting in the car.

Both place others on the roadways at unneeded risk.

1 Reply

@firefly,

Quote:

And, if you fall asleep at the wheel, and hit and kill someone, you'll face vehicular manslaughter charges too.

They would however need to show repeat show that my conditions cause the death or deaths not just assume that is the fact.

1 Reply

@BillRM,

You've already demonstrated you have scant regard for human life.

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@firefly,

firefly wrote:

Quote:
There is nothing magic about the irresponsible act of drinking and driving that make it worst then driving without sleep or others irresponsible acts around driving.

And, if you fall asleep at the wheel, and hit and kill someone, you'll face vehicular manslaughter charges too.

People are responsible for their behavior behind the wheel of a car--and for not driving in any impaired condition--including DUI.

Rarely....we pick and choose the irresponsible behavior that we wish to punish. Sometimes we change our minds, for instance we used to punish women wo got themselves drunk and then ended up in sexual situations that they could not handle, and now we claim that they were raped and hang the guy.

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@BillRM,

Quote:

They would however need to show repeat show that my conditions cause the death or deaths not just assume that is the fact.

Let me make this really simple for you, since you don't seem to understand it...

They don't need to show your "conditions" caused the death--they need to show that your car's impact caused the death and that you were behind the wheel of the car. That's the manslaughter or vehicular homicide part.

And, if you were drunk when behind that wheel, you were driving in a legally impaired state when your car caused that death, and you are responsible for illegally driving your car in that impaired state. That's the DUI part.

So, if your motor vehicle runs into, and kills, a cyclist who was riding in the same direction ahead of you, while you were behind the wheel drunk, you will be appropriately charged with DUI manslaughter.

You are supposed to have your car under control at all times--that means you adjust your car's speed for the weather/road/visibilty conditions, so you don't run your car into cyclists, pedestrians, or other cars, or anything else that that might be ahead of you, and you have to be alert and responsive enough to both see and avoid hitting those things, and that's particularly true at night. Only the driver is fully responsible for how he operates the motor vehicle, as well as for the condition of that vehicle--working headlights, adequate tires and brakes, etc.

You do have problems with individuals taking personal responsibility for their behaviors--as Rockhead pointed out to you.

I suspect that Swift realizes he was responsible for the cyclist's death, and that is part of what is affecting him. That's a terrible thing to have to live with.

1 Reply

@firefly,

Let me explain real real simple once more to you no other form of manslaughter for whatever reason does not need a showing that the reckless behaviors in question cause the death.

To not care in this one case of DUI manslaughter if the driving of the driver was in fact the cause of the death if his or her blood level in at .0800000 or greater is a moral and legal outrageous of the first order.

It serve no public purpose and no public good to placed anyone in prison for an accidental death when the recklessness of the driver drinking did not matter as far as the accident occurring or the death happening.

Drinking and driving is indeed a reckless act however it no more a reckless act then many others acts that we all had done that had impair our driving skills and it does not call for special exception in the manslaughter laws to the need to tied the reckless act to the cause of the death for a manslaughter charge to go forward.

1 Reply

I just don’t understand drinking and driving

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