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HAPLESS 15 YEAR OLD ROBBER IS SHOT

 
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Nov, 2011 10:04 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
There are millions of people who have been robbed at gunpoint without being shot


You a poker player? Im not. I deal primarily in situations in which I can control an outcome to the best of my ability. I have BEEN shot at and accosted by gun thugs and mercenaries in foreign countries and , having a gun available is always a comfort to my sense of control.
My best driller was gunned down in front of me by Biafrans who, he thought were only interested in our goods .They were not, they were interested in taking all our lives. We were accompanied by a small squad of Marines and I too was armed. NONE of the rebels completed their tasks, and I hope someone mourned them. I sure as hell didnt.

I would never be diverted from my normal routine , were I in the city of Philly . BUT, (and I hate to agree with DAve), I would not venture anywhere where the horizons are unknown such as N or West Philly, without a bit of contingency.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Nov, 2011 10:28 am
@farmerman,
Actually, I am a poker player. But that is not the point.

Let's say the real goal is to minimize the chance of getting shot. If you are in Southern Nigeria I would say that having a gun (or better yet a squad of marines) is a damn good idea.

Being in an American city is quite different. Obviously having a gun doesn't guarantee you won't get shot. And it is a fact that millions of armed robberies happen each year with no one getting shot usually when the victim is unarmed.

I suppose there is a mathematical question here, whether having a gun decreases your chance of getting shot, or increases it. I certainly feel like my chances are better, even in North or West Philly, without a gun.

I do think this boils down to a question of manly pride more than it does to any objective reason.

maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Sat 5 Nov, 2011 10:30 am
@maxdancona,
This is interesting (answering my own question)

Quote:
Overall, Branas's study found that people who carried guns were 4.5 times as likely to be shot and 4.2 times as likely to get killed compared with unarmed citizens. When the team looked at shootings in which victims had a chance to defend themselves, their odds of getting shot were even higher.


http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17922-carrying-a-gun-increases-risk-of-getting-shot-and-killed.html
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Sat 5 Nov, 2011 11:56 am
@Questioner,
Questioner wrote:
Or, he could not have pulled a gun, lost some credit cards that he could cancel,
and likely not have a bullet in his stomach.

But that's cool, I'm sure the court costs and hospital fees can be covered just fine by a robber, and that
the vic will sleep MUCH better with the bag he'll have to change out every night.
I had one of those bags on my gut for over a year about 6 years ago, approximately.
That woud not affect me in my choice of defensive strategy.
If I got shot at again, in similar circumstances, I 'd respond the same.





David
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Sat 5 Nov, 2011 12:00 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
This is interesting (answering my own question)

Quote:
Overall, Branas's study found that people who carried guns were 4.5 times as likely to be shot and 4.2 times as likely to get killed compared with unarmed citizens. When the team looked at shootings in which victims had a chance to defend themselves, their odds of getting shot were even higher.


http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17922-carrying-a-gun-increases-risk-of-getting-shot-and-killed.html
I don 't know that study, but I know that anti-gun pro-cowardice studies
have been found to cheat.





David
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Nov, 2011 12:17 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
Actually, I am a poker player. But that is not the point.

Let's say the real goal is to minimize the chance of getting shot. If you are in Southern Nigeria I would say that having a gun (or better yet a squad of marines) is a damn good idea.

Being in an American city is quite different. Obviously having a gun doesn't guarantee you won't get shot. And it is a fact that millions of armed robberies happen each year with no one getting shot usually when the victim is unarmed.

I suppose there is a mathematical question here, whether having a gun decreases your chance of getting shot, or increases it. I certainly feel like my chances are better, even in North or West Philly, without a gun.



I do think this boils down to a question of manly pride
more than it does to any objective reason
.
I agree with u, in large part.
If I knucked under to the demands of a robber,
I 'd be a coward in my own eyes and deeply ashamed of it for the rest of my life.


I know this from experience, because in my teenage years
I WAS a coward toward a certain young lady, in affairs of the heart,
and I DID feel very cowardly, until eventually I straightened it out. It had been emotionally painful.


If I had to return to wearing one of those bags again,
it woud be a rather awkward certificate of standing up for what I believe in.
U know, we r going to die anyway;
might as well have some dignity.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Nov, 2011 12:40 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Obviously having a gun doesn't guarantee you won't get shot.
and thats not the point either. I imagine that most all pf the "armed yet shot" folks, had little experience with shooting anything other than targets. Being able and willing to kill someone who threatens you IS the point.
Show me the stats where the armmed individuals were either law officers or miltary or private guards

I agree that carrying a gun doesnt guarantee anything. BUT, being trained and disposed to its use as a weapon that may require taking a life, does tip it in your favor. Most people who carry would probably fork over any money without engaging in a duel.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Nov, 2011 12:44 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
There are millions of people who have been robbed at gunpoint without being shot
farmerman wrote:
You a poker player? Im not. I deal primarily in situations in which I can control an outcome to the best of my ability. I have BEEN shot at and accosted by gun thugs and mercenaries in foreign countries and , having a gun available is always a comfort to my sense of control.
My best driller was gunned down in front of me by Biafrans who, he thought were only interested in our goods .They were not, they were interested in taking all our lives. We were accompanied by a small squad of Marines and I too was armed. NONE of the rebels completed their tasks, and I hope someone mourned them. I sure as hell didnt.

I would never be diverted from my normal routine , were I in the city of Philly . BUT, (and I hate to agree with DAve), I would not venture anywhere where the horizons are unknown such as N or West Philly, without a bit of contingency.
Farmer, u put that as well or better than I ever did, and with a more cogent example.

If I understand u accurately,
we differ only as to WHO shoud be legally allowed to arm in self defense??

My position has been that this is a fundamental human right
that we all share equally and that government cannot constitutionally discriminate with respect thereto.

U take a more restrictive point of vu, if I understand u correctly.
Is that where our opinions diverge?

or is there something else ?





David
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Nov, 2011 12:55 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

Well, actually, The probability was high that Ells would be robbed AND shot, had he no gun.


Not really..
Even if we assume all assaults with a firearm are actually the result of robberies, the likelihood of being shot by a the robber wielding a firearm are less than 1 in 2.

Only the highest crime is recorded in the statistics for UCR
http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/data/table_15.html
2009 - 149,493 robberies with firearms
2010 - 146,650 assaults with firearms

If you assume all murders are also robberies gone bad you're chances of being shot or killed with a firearm during a robbery are slightly higher than 1 in 2.

I would bet that the majority of the assaults and murders are not the result of robbery however.

That just leaves the argument of whether pulling a gun on a robber makes it more likely to get shot. We will probably never know.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Nov, 2011 12:57 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
Obviously having a gun doesn't guarantee you won't get shot.
farmerman wrote:
and thats not the point either.
I imagine that most all pf the "armed yet shot" folks, had little experience with shooting anything other than targets.
Being able and willing to kill someone who threatens you IS the point.
Show me the stats where the armmed individuals were either law officers or miltary or private guards

I agree that carrying a gun doesnt guarantee anything. BUT, being trained and disposed to its use as a weapon that may require taking a life, does tip it in your favor. Most people who carry would probably fork over any money without engaging in a duel.
I see no reason to contradict u.

Many criminals flee in the face of armed resistance,
literally: as fast as thay possibly can. Its somewhat amusing to see.
That happened in my case, so fast that I coud not line up a shot.
Many robbers depend and rely upon extremely docile submission to their control.
I remember reading the the NY Times, or the Daily News, years ago
of a couple who were in the street one nite, to attend the theater,
when approached by a criminal who informed them that he had a gun
and demanded their valuables.
The gentleman asked him:
"what makes u think that your gun is bigger than my gun?"
(as accurately as I am able to remember reading it),
whereupon the criminal thanked them politely, bowed
and wished them both a nice evening.





David
0 Replies
 
 

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