57
   

Why do you suppose Jesus never condemned slavery?

 
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jan, 2012 10:25 am
@XXSpadeMasterXX,
One has to wonder where this joker comes up with the bullshit he peddles. Slavery two thousand years ago was just as bad, if not worse, than that which obtained in the United States until 1865. I suspect he just makes this **** up as he goes along. He has never shown the least shade of genuine scholarship, and he does have his fanatical insistence on his imaginary friend superstition to defend.
XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 26 Jan, 2012 11:17 am
@Setanta,
Why are you so against the God of the Bible? Or believe he does not exist??

http://able2know.org/topic/176688-2#post-4715662

For it seems (by your definition) the 2 of you have quite a lot in common!!!
Setanta
 
  0  
Reply Thu 26 Jan, 2012 11:32 am
@XXSpadeMasterXX,
What i am against is the bullshit peddlers, such as you, who want to tell other people what the truth is, what reality is, based on their imaginary friend superstition. Why don't i believe that any such god exists? (How do you know it's a "he?") Becuase it is implausible, not just on the face of it, but in particular the hateful, puerile, vengeful and petty deity described in the "scripture" upon which you rely.

As for me having anything in common with your cartoon god, that's a laugh. I don't condone slavery, nor the murder of women and children, nor the murder of unruly children, nor of homosexuals, nor of aldulteresses. Your god is one vicious, hateful son of a bitch.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jan, 2012 11:37 am
@Lustig Andrei,
Thanks, Andy, I didn't know all that.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  3  
Reply Thu 26 Jan, 2012 12:50 pm
@Setanta,
I suppose the one difference between Classical and 18/19th Century slavery is race. Even though both systems were equally dreadful, the Classical system didn't use race to mark out slaves. That did mean that if slaves were freed they had a much greater chance of social climbing than their black counterparts. I understand that the Emperor's slaves/freedmen could wield significant power. There doesn't seem to be a 18/19th Century equivalent.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jan, 2012 02:56 pm
@izzythepush,
I agree with that, although the conditions under which people became slaves differed considerably, also. Truly influential slaves were those who had already had a good education--so, for example, Isthmus (the principle city of which was Corinth) allied itself with Carthage in the final Punic War, so many of the leading families were sold into slavery--this happened in several city states which resisted the Roman hegemony. These people were already literate, so they were highly valued. Subsequently, Octavian--Caesar Augustus--created his enormous bureaucracy using Greek slaves. For those slaves, the best future they could offer their children was literacy and a good education.

Nevertheless, most slaves in the empire lead indifferent lives at best. Many, perhaps most, were literally worked to death in a long, slow process of years of heavy labor in the latifundia, the huge slave driven argicultural and manufacturing operations owned by the Patres and run for them by the oder of Equites ("Knights"). I have noted over the years a tendency in historical fiction to refer to "servants" in Roman homes--bollocks, they used slaves, who were only marginally better off than the workers of the latifundia in that they probably got enough, or almost enough to eat. With the extensive dole, free-born Romans disdained to work as servants.

The racial aspect of North American and West Indian slavery was a product of two factors. One was the already extensive slave trade in West Africa before European traders arrived. The other was genetic. Sickle cell anemia is endemic in West Africa, and its prevelance increases in the presence of malaria. As a consequence, and because people with sickle cell disease are resistant to the life cycle of the malaria plasmodium, West African negroes became the slaves of choice--by default, just about everyone else died off. Originally, the "Sugar Islands" attempted to use European bond laborers--but they couldn't abide the heavy labor in conjunction with the climate. Theoretically, the West Africans were entered under the same conditions--but they could barely speak Dutch, or French or English, never mind being illitereate. So at the end of seven years, they didn't know, and nobody told them they were techincally free. It was not long before that fiction was dropped altogether.
Lustig Andrei
 
  2  
Reply Thu 26 Jan, 2012 03:38 pm
@Setanta,
There's one more factor in re: slavery in the New World that made slaves from Africa particularly attractive to American plantators. Well, two factors, actually. The important one was that a very large percentage of the Africans sold into slavery along the Gold Coast, Ivory Coast and Slave Coast markets were already experienced in agriculture and needed very little training to be put to work in the flelds of cotton or tobacco or indigo. This was in contrast to the local populations in the West Indies (which had become decimated, anyway, by European plagues and massacres) and the populations of indigenous Americans on the mainland. A secondary problem was that -- in North America, at least -- it was impossible to catch and enslave local natives due to the fact that they could so easily escape and go back to their own encampments. (In Central America it proved far easier; it was mostly Mexican-born slaves that built most of the missions in California and the US Southwest.)

But we're getting off the topic of slavery in Biblical times.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jan, 2012 05:17 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
Quote:
In Central America it proved far easier; it was mostly Mexican-born slaves that built most of the missions in California and the US Southwest.)


Thanks for sharing, I was not aware of that. I researched and found this and there seems to be a lot of info out there on slavery that would make a bible thump-er rethink his/her position with the church if they honestly researched it.


The Catholic Church enslaved Mexican Indians and robbed them of their Lands & Identity. Forced the Mexico to build Missions and maintain the Missions as Slave servants. In1718 the Mission Valero de Bexar was built in San Antonio in 1792 the Mission was decommissioned and Mission property was transferred to the Indian families living in it .Indigenous People were driven off the Mission by the invading Anglo Americans. Who really owns the Alamo ?


Lustig Andrei
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jan, 2012 06:16 pm
@reasoning logic,
Yeah, the San Xavier Mission in Tuscon, AZ ditto. And the oldest Catholic church structure in America (still standing) in Santa Fe, NM. But, for the purposes of this thread, I think it important to remember that the R.C. Church, to the best of my knowledge, never made a claim that Jesus had specifically said that slavery was OK> It's just that he'd never said it wasn't.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jan, 2012 07:01 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
This thread had 7 thumbs up earlier, I sense that there are Christians rating this thread down because it goes against what they believe.
I seen a video that shows a right wing young person educating his audience on how to give books and movies that he is against 1 star so people will not bother reading or watching them and giving the books that he finds value in5 stars.
This person who was teaching this suggested that they should spend some time doing this to discourage people from checking out what they did not want them to see.
I wish I could find that video so that I could start a new thread on intellectual honesty.
XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  0  
Reply Thu 26 Jan, 2012 08:00 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
Your god is one vicious, hateful son of a bitch.

And your not>?
Setanta
 
  0  
Reply Thu 26 Jan, 2012 11:28 pm
@XXSpadeMasterXX,
That's right, i'm not. You, however, are a lot like that god of yours.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jan, 2012 02:47 am
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic wrote:
I wish I could find that video so that I could start a new thread on intellectual honesty.


I'm quite glad you can't. You've actually summarised the video quite well. You can do it if you put your mind to it. I don't think the phenomenon you mentioned is limited to evangelical Christians. There are plenty of people with strong views who do exactly the same thing. Only a rabid supprter of hunting with hounds could enjoy Jilly Cooper's **** awful Rough Riders.
0 Replies
 
XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  0  
Reply Fri 27 Jan, 2012 11:50 am
@Setanta,
Well, at least in my defense, when I am acting brash...Or mean (I would never say hateful) then I man up and admit it...I have no problem taking criticism from people who actually care, and are tactful...

You on the other hand, I know at least three who think your an asshole of some sort, or a sociopath...

And you have been here years before me!! So I would say worry, and take care of yourself, before pointing fingers at everyone else!!!

If your not willing to do that, or fix your hate, before labeling everyone else...Than your the one who has hate problems, not me...

But whatever, you can call me hateful if you want...It's bullshit of the highest regard, but if it helps you sleep better at night to say it, Go for it!!

I know it's not true....I actually try to get to know other people, and their perspectives...Rather than hold some board moderator king of this website bullshit over people's heads, and bully them, and say whatever you want because you feel like it...You do not scare me, and I will not be intimidated by you, and your actions....
Setanta
 
  0  
Reply Fri 27 Jan, 2012 12:00 pm
@XXSpadeMasterXX,
I really don't care if you think i'm an asshole or a sociopath. This is exemplary of your passive-aggressive hatefulness--it's typical.

I don't hate anyone here, so spare me the pop psychology bullshit. You claim i hate because you can't deal with my criticism of your cartoon god, my rejection of your imaginary friend superstition. I see you've abandoned the discussion of the character of your "god" as revealed in your "scriptures," and reverted to type, calling me names.

I'm not a moderator, and i could care less whether or not you are "scared" of me. Your feelings of inadequacy and resentment are your problem, not mine. If you can't deal with honest criticism of your cartoon god and your imaginary friend superstition, you probably shouldn't be here.
XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  0  
Reply Fri 27 Jan, 2012 12:11 pm
@Setanta,
that is the problem it isn't honest criticism...but hate speech...

And apparently at least 3 (in my short time here) feel likewise...
Setanta
 
  0  
Reply Fri 27 Jan, 2012 12:25 pm
@XXSpadeMasterXX,
How is it "hate speech" to point out that your cartoon god calls for killing women and children, condones slavery, calls for the execution of homosexuals and calls for the execution of adulteresses? The only hate i see in that is the hate that the writers of the bible poured into their bullshit stories.

I don't hate you, you're not important. I don't hate your silly imaginary friend--how could i hate something that isn't there? What i hate are the vicious, murderous ideas that your scripture peddles. If you consider that hate speech, i'm OK with that.
XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  0  
Reply Fri 27 Jan, 2012 12:29 pm
@Setanta,
I am not talking about my God, or scriptures, I am talking about you!!

Your indeed a hateful man!! If you would like I can link about a few posts that show this....

And no matter how irritated I am by you, I will force myself, to go thru and find them because this directly points toward your hate, which I am more than happy to look thru to find them to show you...
Setanta
 
  0  
Reply Fri 27 Jan, 2012 12:31 pm
@XXSpadeMasterXX,
No, i'm not hateful, and i am talking about your cartoon god and the bullshit scriptures, because that is relevant to this topic. Your paranoid fantasies and personal condemnation of me are not relevant.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  0  
Reply Fri 27 Jan, 2012 12:33 pm
I'd be very much surprised if you can find unambiguous evidence of my "hate." I suspect that this will be just like your claim about two atheists asking for "a sign from god." You even said you could link them--then you backed down, you started name calling and making invidious comments about me, and accusing me of hating. Same story, different day.
 

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