Why do you suppose Jesus never condemned slavery?

@XXSpadeMasterXX,

Better read some of the comments in the early part ofthis thread -- from some five years ago.

For me, whether or not Jesus opposed slavery has abslutely nothing to do with God. It's a matter of historical interest and historical conjecture.

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

If jesus is opposed to slavery then why would he state this?:

The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48)

This is a direct quote from Jesus clearly advocating the beating of slaves even if they didn't know better.

Btw. Slavery is also meantioned in the new testament as well.

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@Frank Apisa,

Maybe it was Christ's perspective....Christ came to be a servant of others.

Philippians 2
Imitating Christ’s Humility
1 Therefore if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any common sharing in the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2 then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and of one mind. 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, 4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.
5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

He didn't think serving others was a horrible way to live. Of course he chose that way of life.

Maybe because he also felt that your mind was where bondage was the worst.

Galatians 5
Freedom in Christ
1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

He is not condoning anarchy here....he is saying that you do not have to be circumcised to know God - to be a part of God.

The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

It seems to me instead of saying that it was wrong for us to enslave others - blatantly so - it was more or less implied by his teaching. His teaching asked that we voluntarily serve others. Willingly.

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@Chights47,

Chights47 wrote:

If jesus is opposed to slavery then why would he state this?:

The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48)

This is a direct quote from Jesus clearly advocating the beating of slaves even if they didn't know better.

You really don't understand the function of parables and allegories, do you, Chi? Comparing how one would treat a servant to how God would treat a sinner has absolutely no connection to what the speaker's personal beliefs on such a subject are. Where do you find in this tired old quote an endorsement of slavery? Or even of beating your servant who might or might not be a slave?

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@Chights47,

In servant he is talking about people who reject him, apposed to obeying him, nothing at all about slavery...

If you need a better more descriptive view...read Lustig's post again...

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@sozobe,

sozobe wrote:

Sometimes, yes, but this is Jesus. He condemned a lot of things.

Or some academic will argue that the true meaning was 'lost in translation'.

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TO EVERYONE...

...please feel free to speak to this issue as you will. I'm going to stay out of it at least for the short run. I've pretty much had my say earlier (this thread has had two resurrections)...and I've pretty satisfied with what I've said.

1 Reply

@Chights47,

Chights47 wrote:

This is a direct quote from Jesus clearly advocating the beating of slaves even if they didn't know better.

Luke was written at the earliest 30 odd years after the crucifixion, most scholars consider it was written more like 60 odd years after. To call something from Luke a direct quotation is stretching things to say the least.

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

Quote:

In servant he is talking about people who reject him, apposed to obeying him

It does seem that he did not like those who did not follow him, or at least the church did not like those who did not follow them.

Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

The church sure does know how to take moral philosophy and twist it.

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@Frank Apisa,

Thanx for the hospitality, Frank. Come back on and get in on the new discussion.

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@Lustig Andrei,

Quote:

Thanx for the hospitality, Frank. Come back on and get in on the new discussion.

Thanks, Lustig. Tell ya what. Here are two quotes from what I wrote earlier that sum up my personal answer to my own question. If anyone has any reservations or objections to my reasoning here, I’ll discuss it.

Quote:

FIRST:

I said that I think the reason Jesus never spoke out against slavery -- is because he did not think there was anything wrong with slavery. He considered slavery moral. His god told him it was moral.

That is the reason I think Jesus never spoke out against slavery -- because the god he worshipped and prayed to said that slavery was legitimate and moral.

http://able2know.org/topic/17906-13#post-561910

Quote:

SECOND: (In response to poster Rauch)

Since Rauch was kind enough to offer a passage from Paul about slavery, I thought I'd offer a few more:

At 1 Timothy 6:1ff, St. Paul says:

"All under the yoke of slavery must regard their masters as worthy of full respect...Those slaves whose masters are brothers in the faith must not take liberties with them on that account. they must perform their tasks even more faithfully, since those who will profit from their work are believers and beloved brothers."

At Colossians 3:22, St. Paul says:

"To slaves I say, obey your human masters perfectly, not with the purpose of attracting attention and pleasing men, but in all sincerity and our of reverence for the Lord."

At Colossians 4:1, St. Paul says:

"You slave owners, deal justly and fairly with your slaves..."

At Titus 2:9, St. Paul says:

"Slaves are to be submissive to their masters. They should try to please them in every way, not contradicting them nor stealing from them, but expressing a constant fidelity by their conduct, so as to adorn in every way possible the doctrine of God our Savior."

At 1 Corinthians 7:17ff, St. Paul says:

"The general rule is that each one should lead the life the Lord has assigned him, continuing as he was when the Lord called him...Were you a slave when your call came? Give it no thought. Even supposing you could go free, you would be better off making the most of your slavery...."

At Philemon, Paul returns a slave (Onesimus) to his master (Philemon) and tells Philemon that although he ) (Paul) feels he has the right to command Philemon to free Onesimus, he would not do that, but would instead appeal to Philemon to do it on his own.

BOTTOM LINE: Every time Paul had an opportunity to say something definitive about the issue of slavery -- he chose to condone it rather than condemn it.

The notion that Jesus and Paul were worried that they might start a slaver uprising is really fanciful.

The most obvious explanation for why these two men did not condemn slavery is that they did NOT THINK THERE WAS ANYTHING WRONG WITH SLAVERY.

And that is understandable, because the god they both worshipped told them there was nothing wrong with slavery.

http://able2know.org/topic/17906-10#post-535555

Obviously both references to "the god they worshiped told them there was nothing wrong with slavery" comes from the passage at Levitucus 25:44ff, which reads,

"Slaves, male and female, you may indeed possess, provided you BUY them from among the neighboring nations. You may also BUY them from among the aliens who reside with you and from their children who are born and reared in your land. Such slaves YOU MAY OWN AS CHATTELS, and leave to your sons as their hereditary property, MAKING THEM PERPETUAL SLAVES. But you shall not lord it harshly over any of the Israelites, your kinsmen."

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@Frank Apisa,

I think that most of your reply seems correct but I do question this part.

Quote:

I personally suspect Jesus never spoke out against slavery because he saw nothing wrong with it.

I think that our Jesus was given to us by the church and the idea was stolen from people like the Therapeutae. The church probably killed as many of these people as possible because they taught against slavery.
They could not kill all of them because the people would not let the idea die so they took this idea and capitalized off of it by distorting the facts.
Research the Therapeutae and you will see what I think Jesus was like if he did exist and he may of but not the magic man the church made him out to be.

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@reasoning logic,

Yeah, I have to agree with reasoning logic here. Virtually all that we know of Jesus as a person comes to us from those who not only established Christianity but eventually installed it as the dictatorial belief system of all Europe and much of the Near East and parts of North Africa. What Saul of Tarsus (aka Saint Paul) says cannot be equated with Jesus' teaching. Nor does Paul pretend to quote Jesus, in fact. These are the teachings of the early Church.

The fact remains that we do not, in fact, have any record of Jesus ever speaking out either for or against the institution. (But see my posts above re: Jesus' Essene connection. If such a connection, in fact, existed, then Jesus would, in all likelihood, have been an opponent of slavery. So why is there no record of his speaking out against it? Possibly because he did not consider it an important enough matter. Slavery was an established institution, as cited in the Biblical passages quoted by Frank Apisa above, and not something that was deemed worthy of active opposition. Essene communities had no slaves but there is no evidence that there existed anything like an "abolitionist" movement to end the practice among Israelites. It was forbidden only to Essenes.)

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@Lustig Andrei,

I think that it would have been completely normal if the church {the status quo religion of that time}{the ruling class and its citizens} tried to kill off all of the people who followed the Therapeutae because it would have been anthropological. I am sure that I could be wrong though.
It seems that primates kill other primates that are not of their own group. We seem to still behave similar in this way today.

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Jesus was not apposed to the slavery depicted in the Bible...to preserve Jewish seed...

Like I said the slavery depicted in the Bible is like being a butler, or maid servant...

Jesus would in every way be apposed to slavery which took place here, such as in the Civil War era...

I think humans took the word slavery, and contorted it in every way to punish people, but it was a different kind of slavery, that is spoken of in the Bible...

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

As explained by the scriptures Frank posted....

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

Quote:

Jesus was not apposed to the slavery depicted in the Bible...to preserve Jewish seed...

I would agree, the Jesus that man {church} gave us was not apposed to slavery.

Quote:

Like I said the slavery depicted in the Bible is like being a butler, or maid servant...

You do not seems as though you have done a thorough research of slavery in the bible. What frank had shared with us are quotes that make slavery look less harmless. The old testament is full of brutal slave treating and the New testament seems to try and clean it up just as it has done with every thing else. The Torah has even done a better job of cleaning up slavery in it. {If I am not mistaken, " I have seen where the Torah has cleaned up some it very nicely so I can only guess the Torah did the same all though out it.}

Quote:

I think humans took the word slavery, and contorted it in every way to punish people, but it was a different kind of slavery, that is spoken of in the Bible...

Please do not kid yourself, people are people and have always behaved the same way. Slaves were mistreated back before the bible was written and after the bible was written.

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@reasoning logic,

Bear in mind that Israel was an outpost of the Roman Empire. Most slaves would be owned by Romans. The occupation was the main topic of conversation.

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

Quote:

Jesus was not apposed to the slavery depicted in the Bible...to preserve Jewish seed...

Like I said the slavery depicted in the Bible is like being a butler, or maid servant...

....

I think humans took the word slavery, and contorted it in every way to punish people, but it was a different kind of slavery, that is spoken of in the Bible...

First of all, Spademaster, thank you for replying.

I have heard the same thoughts you are expressing here...and always come away from them with a terrible taste in my mouth.

The most disgusting aspects of slavery were the same back then as they were during the days of the American slavery. The notion of a great difference between the two is merely rationalization.

If you were a slave (back then or here in America) you were owned--you were chattel. Your owner also owned your family...and could sell you, your spouse, your children, and your siblings.

To suppose that is like being a butler or a maid servant is absurd. You seem to be a decent person...and you ought really to re-assess why you want to use that rationalization.

Quote:

Jesus would in every way be apposed to slavery which took place here, such as in the Civil War era...

Why??? The god he loved and worshiped specifically said there was nothing wrong with slavery...with buying and selling slaves...with keeping them slaves forever by passing them down to sons as inherited property. Seems to me you might logically argue that Jesus would condemn excesses in punishments meted out, but to suggest he would oppose slavery honestly does not ring true.

Which, of course, brings me back to the point I have made many times in this thread over the years: The reason Jesus did not speak out against slavery is because he saw nothing wrong with it. He had the word of the god he worshiped on that.

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@Frank Apisa,

Because I believe it is a different kind of slavery, depicted then, and now....

Not the same...

Jesus would speak out against slavery that happened here...Jesus would not speak out against the slavery then....

The slavery then was actually to take care of a brother or sister...I don't know why you believe that is anywhere near close to the slavery that happened here in Civil War era's etc...

Like I said before, the better question is why did God use the word slavery...

But I think we as humans took it on a name of our own and contorted it...and now look down upon the Lord for saying slavery in the Bible...When I am saying, I think they are not one and the same and are different...

And your welcome for the reply...

2 Replies

Why do you suppose Jesus never condemned slavery?

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