7
   

Every religion proven to be based upon a foundation of lies

 
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Sep, 2011 11:28 am
@reasoning logic,
......we will always believe something...having the ideal is not having the thing...we may improve but we will indeed always believe something even if more complexly elaborated...
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Sep, 2011 11:32 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
I'd love to know what "forward" means ! If you mean "control over our lives", remember that we in the West belong to the privileged few. The chances of extending such status to the rest of humanity look pretty slim to me.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Sep, 2011 11:37 am
@fresco,
...I was referring to hope, which is what drives us and not to a factual success...to some extinction will come sooner rather then later...

...temporally speaking success reports always to a more or less limited extension of time...atemporally speaking existing it is already all the success we need to have...
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Sep, 2011 11:50 am
...earlier when asserting that not believing necessarily presupposes a sort of belief I was not reporting to any specific form of belief, which would be false, but to the general category of believing something to exist...
(it is important to clarify that)
(...I can already imagine some smart asses ranting behind my back...but what they think to know, I have long already forgotten...)
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Sep, 2011 11:56 am
@igm,
Hmmm. When is a religion not a religion? As I see it the more a "religion" takes its mythological metaphors literally it is a "popular religion". the less it takes them literally it is a philosophy. At its heart the two great Eastern "religions" are more like what we consider philosophies to be (perhaps we can all them religious philosophies, or philosophical religions--words).
On the other hand, I like the definition of religion as referring to the re-connection (re-ligare or re-legio?) of Man with God, Brahma, Ultimate Reality, etc.--ligare or legio may be from the same root as that of our connective tissue, ligament--
The Zen version of Buddhism (or the Vedanta version of Hinduism), however, will direct us to the realization that we need not connect ourselves to the Ultimate, only to realize that we have never been apart from It. Tat Tvam Asi.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Sep, 2011 12:04 pm
@JLNobody,
Quote:
...only to realize that we have never been apart from It...


...exactly...there you have it, the reality ! res cogitans and extensa together not apart...can you see the cogitans in the extensa and the extensa in the cogitans ? That is the question to me...function and computation is my middle term compromise...
0 Replies
 
igm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Sep, 2011 12:47 pm
@JLNobody,
I will say and add, that we are all already Enlightened but the two veils of the disturbing emotions and ignorance of the true nature of reality obscure that reality.

How can we reconnect to something that we are truly separate from? Of course there is no separation; as someone once said 'We are all limbs of one life'.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Sep, 2011 01:05 pm
@igm,
Quote:
I will say and add, that we are all already Enlightened


In what way are we enlightened? By the indoctrination of our environment?

I think that some people are on different levels of enlightenment and for many good reasons and all of us have more wrong than what we would think possible!

I did like this quote of yours!
At Buddhism's heart is that the true nature of reality is beyond elaboration i.e. whatever concept, idea, theory etc... one has about it, that will be wrong.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Sep, 2011 01:12 pm
@reasoning logic,
...and why is that true ? the fact the you cannot have a final account on reality does n´t mean a final account would bring up any new nature on geometry forms...patterns repeat !
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Sep, 2011 01:18 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
geometry forms? Is this what all enlightenment entails?
igm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Sep, 2011 01:22 pm
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic wrote:

In what way are we enlightened? By the indoctrination of our environment?

In a 'sun behind the clouds' way i.e. it is temporarily obscured but it just needs to be uncovered. So we have everything we need but we haven't accessed it yet. A cloudless sky reveals the sun. When this happens the clouds didn't cease to exist but changed and that change revealed the sun... so to speak.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Sep, 2011 01:22 pm
@reasoning logic,
...yes...you have them in music, in language, in paintings, and in the rough terrain of the world...the very same geometric forms...
(this sentence is squared)
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Sep, 2011 01:31 pm
@igm,
I would think that enlightenment entails much more than what me or you can think up. We have very good reasons to think that we are correct in much of what we say, just as those in the past thought that the heavens, sun and the moon evolved around us at the center of the universe.

They were not stupid they had very good reason to think as they did, But they were still wrong!
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Sep, 2011 01:42 pm
@reasoning logic,
Congratulations, RL. This is one of our rare expressions of wisdom. Reality is much more--both in scope and depth-- than any formula the best of us can concoct. Even E=MD2.
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Sep, 2011 02:27 pm
@igm,
RL, you ask IGM in what way we are (already or inherently) enlightened. I can't think of a more important question. In one usage we gain a degree of intellectual and empirical enlightenment/qua knowledge when we study the social or physical sciences, but I think you were referring more to something like "spiritual enlightenment." Were you not?
In that case our inherent enlightenment--what zen and vedanta refer to--is, in my limited perception, the reality we see at times (especially in the context of meditation) when we are not looking for it. It is the sheer presence of consciousness in the context of "choiceless awareness." Not when we are looking (for something) but when we bask in our pre-reflective consciousness, before we filter it through our meaning-generating categories, values and interests.
It is the realization that we ARE our ever-changing experience. But the latter most often seems to be separate phenomena that "happen to" us when we objectify them in order to grasp/control and understand/make sense of them. That effort appears to separate us from what is inherently us. Of course that is illusory. Alternatively, when we awaken to our unity with experience we enJOY the bliss of unification with the world. That is what I understand to be at the heart of "spiritual enlightenment."
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Sep, 2011 02:53 pm
@JLNobody,
Quote:
I think you were referring more to something like "spiritual enlightenment." Were you not?


I was referring to all knowledge,{absolute understanding} "which I think is unattainable.


Quote:
-what zen and vedanta refer to--is, in my limited perception, the reality we see at times (especially in the context of meditation) when we are not looking for it. It is the sheer presence of consciousness in the context of "choiceless awareness." Not when we are looking (for something) but when we bask in our pre-reflective consciousness, before we filter it through our meaning-generating categories, values and interests.



I have never meditated but I do plan to give it a try!


What do you think about Allen Watts?


Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Sep, 2011 02:55 pm
@reasoning logic,
...novelty like fashion it is an illusion of the young...indeed we eventually often later in life come to learn that the world changes and stays the same !
The geometry´s and landscape´s of the soul are no different in any sense then the geometry´s and landscapes of the world...and thus believing the world is more then geometry, or any less with it for description, is not knowing a thing about geometry, nor about the world...

...in fact it is true that there´s nothing but form !
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Sep, 2011 03:09 pm
@reasoning logic,
Very interesting video RL thanks for posting !
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Sep, 2011 03:11 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
I try to see things this way!

Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Sep, 2011 03:23 pm
@reasoning logic,
The video is ok RL, but I was just wondering if you did noticed the enormous amount of beliefs presented in it, specially in the second half...you see the problem with beliefs is that understanding is made of them...

My recipe is not to disbelieve but to complement beliefs...
 

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