Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Sep, 2011 08:48 pm
@George,
Quote:
I thought this argument sounded familiar and then I thought, "Oh yeah.
This is the argument believers use when asked how they can justify belief
in God."


Perhaps. But we are not talking about justifying belief in god. We are talking about a political institution and documents that they have in their keeping. I do not understand why it sounds like such an absurd notion to you that it would be in the interest of any political institution to protect their own power over people. Does it strike you as something that people who have power don't normally do? If you want to control people by controlling their beliefs, you have to control what they are given to know about the issues their beliefs are about. Are you saying that the church isn't doing that, and has never done it?
George
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Sep, 2011 09:02 pm
@Cyracuz,
Major leap of logic there. Read your own questions over again carefully.
Then read what I said carefully. Notice anything? Hint: you went off the
deep end.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2011 07:10 am
@George,
We might say I went off the deep end in starting this whole tread, but I don't think these thoughts about the contents of the secret archive are completely unfounded.
What is the leap of logic you see?
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2011 09:13 am
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:
But you don't really know that I am wrong, do you?

No, but I have my suspicions.

Cyracuz wrote:
About there being documents in the vatican vaults that undermine church authority... I admit that I cannot claim to know that such documents are there, but neither can you claim to know that there are not.

Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

Cyracuz wrote:
Based on what I know about the history of christianity and the church I think that there may very well be such documents hidden away.

Based on what I know about the history of people and organizations, it seems highly unlikely that documents calling into question the tenets of christianity or the church's authority could have been hidden for a couple of millennia without someone blabbing. If there's a document that shows Jesus died of old age, surrounded by his wives and children, in a middle-class suburb of Babylon, we don't know about it because it's probably lost or destroyed, not because it has been hidden in the Vatican archives. And if it has been hidden, why would anyone hide it in the archives, where it could be found? Why not hide it in a wall safe behind a portrait of Pope Stephen VI? Not only do you not know much about archives, you also don't seem to know much about hiding things, either.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2011 09:35 am
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:

If there's a document that shows Jesus died of old age, surrounded by his wives and children, in a middle-class suburb of Babylon,


A suburb of Rennes Le Chateau, that's another matter.
0 Replies
 
Lustig Andrei
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2011 08:34 pm
If any such document existed, it certainly would not have been hidden by the Church in the Vatican archives or anywhere else. It would have been promptly burned.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2011 05:16 am
@Lustig Andrei,
I am not so sure it would have been promptly burned if it was, for instance, a document written by Jesus. They would have been afraid of the wrath of God. Wink
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2011 05:24 am
@Cyracuz,
What even a list like this?
1) Received as Messiah by people
2) Throw moneychangers out of temple
3) Last supper, tell off Peter, get betrayed by Judas
4) Tea with Herod Pilot etc
5) Crucifixion (oo-er)
6) Lunch with Dad and Gabriel
7) Gardening quips with Mary
8) Bit of a holiday before graduation.

XP
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2011 05:24 am
@joefromchicago,
Quote:
it seems highly unlikely that documents calling into question the tenets of christianity or the church's authority could have been hidden for a couple of millennia without someone blabbing.


There are many (conspiracy) theories regarding this. Might be someone's been blabbing.

And I know that the best place to hide a book is a library. A big one.
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2011 04:59 pm
So, let's say that the Vatican knows that it has in its possession copies of such non-cannonical Christian books like the Gospel of Thomas, the Oxyryhnchus Gospels, the Gospel of Mary, etc. which have only been relatively recently discovered in other places, and that they have knowingly kept them from the general public of the world. How much different would the world's reaction be had the world been exposed to these books at some earlier time?

I don't think the world would have reacted much differently than it has since the actual discovery of these books.
0 Replies
 
George
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2011 07:18 pm
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:
. . . There are many (conspiracy) theories regarding this. Might be
someone's been blabbing.

And I know that the best place to hide a book is a library. A big one.

So just what book is this?

And the best place to hide a book is a Templar church.
I thought everybody knew that.
0 Replies
 
Lustig Andrei
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Sep, 2011 07:24 pm
I remember reading somewhere years ago that the Vatican Library includes the world's largest collection of pornography. So what?
George
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Sep, 2011 08:10 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
Lustig Andrei wrote:
I remember reading somewhere years ago that the Vatican Library includes
the world's largest collection of pornography. So what?

Seriously?
(and given the nature of this tread I use that term loosely)
Lustig Andrei
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Sep, 2011 02:25 pm
@George,
Seriously. I mean, as serious as we get here.

(And, in the interests of strict accuracy, in the earlier post I should have said, "If that's true, so what?")
0 Replies
 
XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Sep, 2011 02:37 pm
@Cyracuz,
Quote:
I think it's safe to say that we've been over this before, but here goes again.

Ever since the concil of Nicea the Bible has been more a means of power and control over people and less a book with a spiritual message.
Hava you ever thought about the Vatican's admission that if they were to release the texts they have locked away in it's vaults it would be catastrophic to Christianity? I don't see how that can mean anything except that the faith is founded in lies that the Vatican is charged with protecting.

And from there it is simple reasoning:
The Vatican, the supreme authority of Christianity on Earth, would have you believe in them, not God. It is not God you must heed, but what they tell you about God.
Consider a few simple principles:
A good teacher doesn't tell you what to think, but teaches you how to think.
Spiritual guidance is not being led by the nose, but being pointed in the right direction.

In Christianity, God is the hostage, and they hold him for ransom. The ransom is obedience without question, and the ironic part is that if we turn our backs on Christianity we will set God free...

I will answer this as simple as I can as a Christian....I don't follow based on what the Vatican says or does...I follow based on what God tells me to do....because even faithful followers of Christ are WRONG sometimes, for we are not God ourselves....So as a believer in Christ I do believe in alot of what you initially posted, but find Jesus through my praying, and seeking, and Follow HIM, not another women or man, for they are flawed in ways just like I am....

But the one part I disagree with is setting God free....if God exists he obviously DOES want us to follow and find him....your beliefs (setting him free) are from a perspective that doesn't accept God, therefor, you are thinking in terms of what God would want in comparison to a Human thinking....which can't be done....God(if he exists) is God because he does the things we CANNOT do....
XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Sep, 2011 07:18 pm
@XXSpadeMasterXX,
I don't understand, (not that it bothers me, for I expect it, posting in mostly Atheist threads) why you guys and girls constantly vote my posts down, you ask for a good explaination, from Christians, and I am giving you one honestly from my heart....if you feel "inclined" to view the situations differently, please post, rather than voting my posts down...

if you guys and girls have read the Bible, it States, The Church will FALL at the end times, so its EASY to understand there is NO DOUBT we are straying farther and farther from God...Its black and white clear as crystal in scripture, so therefor, yes, humans who follow scripture, and adopt "their own views as to how things SHOULD be done" is going father and farther from God, why? because we at our bests are not God himself, simply put...and situations are complex in different ways that are not explained in the Bible, such as Abortion, which can be open "in my views" if one is raped or has incest....etc, and the Bible says, That ALL of Gods Words CANNOT be summed into ONE book, which makes perfect sense to me, if the Bible is correct, a life with God, REQUIRES one to "devote" their life to HIM (God) and he (God) will devote his plan for "you" therefor, the Bible is a Guide, and JUST THE BEGINNING of our Journey with God, what he wants us to do, is become prudent, and use "Good Judgement" in EVERY situation....but people having flaws, DO NOT obey God Fully, and therefor, we "adopt" "our own" views as to what is the "right" way or "wrong" way and fight about them....

and the reason why God says remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy, people twist his words, I don't think for a second he is saying be bad all week, and give me 1 hr a week on Sunday's, and ALL will be forgiven, (though from mercy from God, (I see ALL can be forgiven if they in fact chose to be with God, and do what in ness. in the end to render them into Heaven, (again if they want to go)) no what he is saying, is, follow and OBEY me 7 days a week, but when you STUMBLE, repent, or in another way, if your going to be bad, (which I feel WE ALL ARE) then give me AT LEAST ONE day to be rightoues, in other words, DO NOT TRY TO BE AGAINST ME 7 DAYS A WEEK. and "expect" me to be open armed and embrace you...give me AT LEAST the "SMALLEST" amount of "faith" and I can do Miraculous things with your life....then, when one "has reflections of light in them" Christ" they (faithful ones) will "rigoursly try" to do good "ALL" the time....perpetuating their "faith" and situations with life and about God....
0 Replies
 
kYRANI
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Oct, 2011 07:53 am
@joefromchicago,
Private libraries, public libraries.. there books and manuscripts. There is only one way and that is to find god within. Meditate and the peace that passes all understanding is attained. The personal self vanishes and the mystical experience, which is not attainable, is attained! We need a new Reformation or an extension of the Reformation. Martin Luther helped lay people.. the general public to read the holy texts but that is not enough. Taste of the waters of immortality for yourself, that is where it's at.
I also want to say something about the comment that all religions outside of Christianity are Satan's. There is no spiritual entity that has any independent reality that we might call Satan. There is no counter part to God. Satan comes into being when two or more people, who are hateful and cruel and who enjoy hurting other people, who gain supreme pleasure from seeing and feeling the suffering of others, become associated. They give rise to a common mindset and that mindset is Satan. They operate in ways that are clandestine most of the time. They use deceit and intimidation to trick and/or force unsuspecting people into a trap and thereby do them harm. Exposing their methods means they can no longer operate and when they can no longer operate they perish. The Devil or Satan or Mara or whatever we want to call this mindset, which seems to have a volition of its own, can be defeated and destroyed.
XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Oct, 2011 05:59 am
@kYRANI,
I would LOVE to believe everything you have stated, as a matter of fact I preach to others if your going to doubt ANY parts of the Bible, doubt the bad not the Good....but with that being said, I HAVE in fact seen Satan many different times, and in MANY different forms....I would hope none is stupid enough to think he could defeat God...or that ANYONE will ever be punished forever....but in all honestly, I have been witness to Satan, his demonic kingdom, and his torture, and torments, and know an entity of the magnitude of the one described in the Bible exists "from what I have seen, and witnessed" but again I HOPE your right!....or AT LEAST, that ALL make it into Heaven, even if unholy ones are the least of the least....in Heaven...but on a side note, I agree with everything else you posted, about going out to taste immorality etc...and the texts are the beginning or a guide....and I definatly DO NOT believe for a second (as a Christian) that ALL other religious are of the Devil! no way! no how! you can easily see if someone is a reflection of light or not, and therefor, if they are, they are NOT against Christ...in ANY way....they will be judged according to there reflections, and if they chose to enter Heaven, they will be shown Jesus, and will have to do what is ness. to get in, if they chose to, Just like I, a faithful believer may have to also, for my horendous acts on earth, which I am guilty of myself....do I believe I am going to hell? nope! because no matter what, I know, when I am before Christ, I will accept what he says I need to do in order to make it in...whether it be a rebirth, or fighting a demon for each sin I committed etc...I WILL NOT GIVE UP, so I know I will be in Heaven one day...just like many who DO NOT except Christ now! but have reflections of light in them, and are not against Jesus, and have the WISDOM to accept Jesus, when they die, and if they want they will be granted into Heaven....just like me, one whom more is given, and MORE is expected...but I fall just like we all do!
kYRANI
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Oct, 2011 01:07 pm
@XXSpadeMasterXX,
I would be interested to hear from you what you mean and what you have experienced when you say you are witness to Satan, if you are willing to share with me this experience. I am working to expose the operation of evil and Satan and I know that I will do that with certainty since I have been shown this in many and various ways throughout my life. However in the mean time I have enraged the community or underculture of evil people and they are many. What I have found though is that they work through deception so as to create the illusion of power. Satan, the collective spirit of evil has no power. What is used is deception in order to trick the unsuspecting person into believing that there is an almight powerful being of evil. It is almighty impotent. They use very crafty means but all that they can offer is suggestion and when you realize that suggestion does not found reality then you realize just how impotent the spirit of evil really is. All suggestions can be very simply discarded. They also aim to use the mind of the good person as to create conditions of manifestion of one sort or another and make it look as if it is the evil that is doing it. It is the good person, through integrity of mind that has power, indeed enormous mental power.
0 Replies
 
kYRANI
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Oct, 2011 10:31 pm
@XXSpadeMasterXX,
With regard to your statement... "ALL make it into Heaven, even if unholy ones are the least of the least....in Heaven.." I don't know who you regard to be "the unholy ones" but one thing is certain and that is that evil people, that is people who hurt other people systematically and for the pleasure they get from doing harm and serving Satan, those people have zero chance of going to heaven because they have already forfeited that right by becoming evil. The people who choose to be evil are lost forever. They can only expect to suffer eternal rage without relief and aloneness forever. It is the choice they have made in becoming evil.
 

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