joefromchicago
 
  2  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2011 06:07 am
@Lustig Andrei,
As everyone knows, I'm a very generous guy, even to third-rate hacks. What can I say? I love too much.
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2011 06:26 am
@joefromchicago,
Why shouldn't every crank in christendom be allowed to know what's in there? They don't have to open it so that everyone can stroll in and browse like it was some comic book store. But we have technology that could make it all available electronically. A catalog of what's in there probably wouldn't be hard to make, but no such thing exists, and those thousand researchers who get access each year still have to ask for a specific document they wish to examine.

I may be wrong about the archives containing sensitive information that can compromise christian dogma, but it seems we can neither confirm or deny that claim as long as things are as they are. As this serves the interest of those who would keep such documents hidden, and these people are also the keepers of the archives, that just seems suspicious...

And Walter is right that I haven't done research into archives, but the vatican secret archives isn't exactly an ordinary archive.
joefromchicago
 
  2  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2011 08:33 am
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

Why shouldn't every crank in christendom be allowed to know what's in there? They don't have to open it so that everyone can stroll in and browse like it was some comic book store. But we have technology that could make it all available electronically. A catalog of what's in there probably wouldn't be hard to make, but no such thing exists, and those thousand researchers who get access each year still have to ask for a specific document they wish to examine.

You really don't know anything about archives, do you. The Vatican archives have about five hundred years worth of documents. My guess is that only a fraction of them have been catalogued. Indexing and cataloguing such a vast archive isn't something you can do over the weekend.

Cyracuz wrote:
I may be wrong about the archives containing sensitive information that can compromise christian dogma, but it seems we can neither confirm or deny that claim as long as things are as they are. As this serves the interest of those who would keep such documents hidden, and these people are also the keepers of the archives, that just seems suspicious...

Sure, it seems suspicious to people who are already inclined to be suspicious. But then those are the people who would remain suspicious even if they were given free access to the archive.

Cyracuz wrote:
And Walter is right that I haven't done research into archives, but the vatican secret archives isn't exactly an ordinary archive.

It strikes me as a pretty ordinary archive, as archives go. Lots of old stuff, arranged somewhat haphazardly.
George
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2011 08:56 am
Joe you are just draining all the fun out of this.

Now, about Snookie . . .
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2011 09:15 am
Here's the link to the abstract on the New Yorker article on the vatican library by Daniel Mendelsohn.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/01/03/110103fa_fact_mendelsohn

For non subscribers there is a fee involved to access the full long article. I think the abstract is useful to the discussion here, though it doesn't mention Snookie.

George
 
  3  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2011 09:26 am
@ossobuco,
ossobuco wrote:
. . . though it doesn't mention Snookie.

Nor the Templars.
Coincidence?
I think not.
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Sep, 2011 04:29 am
@joefromchicago,
Well, i guess it comes down to a matter of opinion. Five hundred year old documents are cultural treasures that belong to everyone. They are not the property of the pope or any institution. In my opinion.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Sep, 2011 05:00 am
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

Well, i guess it comes down to a matter of opinion. Five hundred year old documents are cultural treasures that belong to everyone. They are not the property of the pope or any institution. In my opinion.


You certainly have no idea about why archives have been instituted, what they do and what work is done there.

Actually, in most countries - including the Holy See - archives are regulated by law.

The documents they store are not exclusively owned by the archives - that depends on various facts (and laws).

The idea that "cultural reasures" belong to everyone is ... well, certainly quite nice.
But even Engels and Marx had a different - "conservative" (in the literal meaning of that term) - approach when they met at Chethan's Library, read and looked through documents.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Sep, 2011 05:12 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
The documents they store are not exclusively owned by the archives


In the case of the vatican they are.

Wiki:
Quote:
The use of the word "secret" in the title "Vatican Secret Archives" does not denote the modern meaning of confidentiality. Instead, it indicates that the archives are the Pope's personal property


Even thought the modern church may have little interest in suppressing texts that go against their faith, that was not the case 500 years ago.

But this whole bit about archives is slightly beside the point. I do not understand how you doubt that the christian ruling class of Europe the past 500 years, and even further back, have sought to control and manipulate people by controlling their worship.
To say that the church has never had any political influence and interests is simply ignorant and naive.
My point is that once you have used a religion for such ends it is forever tainted by it.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Sep, 2011 06:38 am
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

Well, i guess it comes down to a matter of opinion.

True, but that doesn't mean that all opinions are created equal. In this case, for instance, my opinion is much better than yours.

Cyracuz wrote:
Five hundred year old documents are cultural treasures that belong to everyone. They are not the property of the pope or any institution. In my opinion.

Your opinion is shared by very few archives.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Sep, 2011 06:46 am
@joefromchicago,
Quote:
Your opinion is shared by very few archives


Maybe that's why I don't have an archive...

Your opinions are valued, your knowledge even more so. I'll not continue with claiming that the Vatican hides secrets to protect Christianity, because I cannot prove it. But I do find it likely, considering what organized religion is all about.
joefromchicago
 
  2  
Reply Tue 6 Sep, 2011 09:03 am
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:
I'll not continue with claiming that the Vatican hides secrets to protect Christianity, because I cannot prove it. But I do find it likely, considering what organized religion is all about.

No doubt. Many people have suspicions that are based largely on false information. That's not surprising. What's surprising is how tenaciously they hold onto those suspicions even after the falsity of the information is pointed out.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Sep, 2011 09:10 am
@joefromchicago,
Sometimes it is easy to forget that being right is in itself rather pointless.
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Sep, 2011 09:41 am
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

Sometimes it is easy to forget that being right is in itself rather pointless.

Especially if you're wrong.
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Sep, 2011 05:46 pm
@Cyracuz,
Carry on, Cyracuz. I have no evidence to back up my feeling that there is much truth in your thesis, but there it is.
0 Replies
 
Lustig Andrei
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Sep, 2011 08:18 pm
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

Well, i guess it comes down to a matter of opinion. Five hundred year old documents are cultural treasures that belong to everyone. They are not the property of the pope or any institution. In my opinion.


Let me see if I understand you correctly. Are you saying that if, in my private library, I have some documents inherited from a long-dead ancestor who came by them quite legitimately and that, although these documents were bequeathed to me in the course of time, I actually have no right to them, that they are, somehow, public property solely by virtue of their age?
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Sep, 2011 08:24 pm
@joefromchicago,
But you don't really know that I am wrong, do you?
About there being documents in the vatican vaults that undermine church authority... I admit that I cannot claim to know that such documents are there, but neither can you claim to know that there are not.

Based on what I know about the history of christianity and the church I think that there may very well be such documents hidden away.

George
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Sep, 2011 08:24 pm
In many cases, documents owned by the Vatican would not even exist
today had they not been taken care of.
0 Replies
 
George
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Sep, 2011 08:30 pm
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:
But you don't really know that I am wrong, do you?
About there being documents in the vatican vaults that undermine church
authority... I admit that I cannot claim to know that such documents are
there, but neither can you claim to know that there are not.

Based on what I know about the history of christianity and the church I
think that there may very well be such documents hidden away.


I thought this argument sounded familiar and then I thought, "Oh yeah.
This is the argument believers use when asked how they can justify belief
in God."
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Sep, 2011 08:38 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
That is not what I am saying, Andrei. This whole business with the archives sidetracked the whole thread. Such a document would perhaps be your property, but it would be a part of the cultural heritage belonging to everyone. If you were to hide such a document away because it threatened a position of authority you had, I would say that you had no right to do that.

And if that wasn't the case, but many people started believing that it was, wouldn't it be in your interest to disabuse any such notions by granting the public access to this document? If you refused it would only inflame the suspicions.

There is controversy surrounding the secret archives, and access to it is highly restricted.

Wiki:
Quote:
The Vatican Secret Archives have been estimated to contain 52 miles (84 km) of shelving,[4] and there are 35,000 volumes in the selective catalogue alone. "Indexes must be consulted in the Index Room and replaced in their original location. Publication of the indexes, in part or as a whole, is forbidden".


Why, I wonder, is it forbidden?

0 Replies
 
 

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