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Are atheists being more illogical than agnostics?

 
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Apr, 2021 03:07 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

I'll stick to no god, and stick with nature or natural.


As you know from previous conversations, ci...I have no trouble with you, or anyone else, blindly guessing that there are no gods...just as I have no trouble with anyone blindly guessing that there is at least one god.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Mon 26 Apr, 2021 04:24 am
@Frank Apisa,
If there’s no God, how come the only member of ZZ Top without a beard is called Frank Beard?

Explain that one.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Apr, 2021 05:22 am
@Frank Apisa,
Hey Frank,

Quote:
The atheistic position is all over the place...running from "there are no gods" to "I 'believe' there are no gods" to "It is more likely that there are no gods than that there is at least one" to...whatever the hell is the atheistic flavor of the day.


Here's how I frame it, to myself: I live as an atheist, that is, "without a deity". I don't think about god; I don't deny it, I don't believe it, I just don't use the term in either a practical or a contemplative manner in my daily life — except when discussing the belief as a cultural phenomenon. Agnosticism almost gives the subject too much attention and respect — more, to my atheistic mind, than it deserves. The whole speculative concept can simply be ignored. To me, atheism means that the existence or non-existence of a supreme being is simply not an issue.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Mon 26 Apr, 2021 01:04 pm
@hightor,
hightor wrote:


Hey Frank,

Quote:
The atheistic position is all over the place...running from "there are no gods" to "I 'believe' there are no gods" to "It is more likely that there are no gods than that there is at least one" to...whatever the hell is the atheistic flavor of the day.


Here's how I frame it, to myself: I live as an atheist, that is, "without a deity". I don't think about god; I don't deny it, I don't believe it, I just don't use the term in either a practical or a contemplative manner in my daily life — except when discussing the belief as a cultural phenomenon. Agnosticism almost gives the subject too much attention and respect — more, to my atheistic mind, than it deserves. The whole speculative concept can simply be ignored. To me, atheism means that the existence or non-existence of a supreme being is simply not an issue.


I understand.

But two questions arise:

One: Are atheists being more logical than agnostics?

Two: Why...WHY...do you use "atheist" as a descriptor, rather than simply stating your position.

Here is mine, once again:

I do not know if any gods exist or not;
I see no reason to suspect gods CANNOT EXIST...that the existence of gods is impossible;
I see no reason to suspect that gods MUST EXIST...that gods are needed to explain existence;
I do not see enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess in either direction...

...so I don't.


If I may...is there some part of that comment with which you are in disagreement?


hightor
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Apr, 2021 01:29 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
One: Are atheists being more logical than agnostics?


No, not when they say these sorts of things, using your examples:

Quote:
"There are no gods" or "It is more likely that there are no gods than that there is at least one"...


I agree with your appraisal of those statements as illogical and imprecise.

Quote:
Two: Why...WHY...do you use "atheist" as a descriptor, rather than simply stating your position.


Only because to my mind, when the descriptor is seen as meaning "without god", it's closer to how I actually live my life. I have no objection to your statement:

Quote:
I do not know if any gods exist or not;
I see no reason to suspect gods CANNOT EXIST...that the existence of gods is impossible;
I see no reason to suspect that gods MUST EXIST...that gods are needed to explain existence;
I do not see enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess in either direction...

...so I don't.


Especially the very last line. My point isn't to say that either agnosticism or atheism are right or wrong. I'm just carving out an interpretation of "atheism" which doesn't make the claims that you (and I) find objectionable. When I describe my thinking as that of an atheist I am not saying that no deity exists — I'm simply removing myself from a theistic context entirely. Because that's how I live, without god.




Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Mon 26 Apr, 2021 02:00 pm
@hightor,
hightor wrote:


Quote:
One: Are atheists being more logical than agnostics?


No, not when they say these sorts of things, using your examples:

Quote:
"There are no gods" or "It is more likely that there are no gods than that there is at least one"...


I agree with your appraisal of those statements as illogical and imprecise.

Quote:
Two: Why...WHY...do you use "atheist" as a descriptor, rather than simply stating your position.


Only because to my mind, when the descriptor is seen as meaning "without god", it's closer to how I actually live my life. I have no objection to your statement:

Quote:
I do not know if any gods exist or not;
I see no reason to suspect gods CANNOT EXIST...that the existence of gods is impossible;
I see no reason to suspect that gods MUST EXIST...that gods are needed to explain existence;
I do not see enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess in either direction...

...so I don't.


Especially the very last line. My point isn't to say that either agnosticism or atheism are right or wrong. I'm just carving out an interpretation of "atheism" which doesn't make the claims that you (and I) find objectionable. When I describe my thinking as that of an atheist I am not saying that no deity exists — I'm simply removing myself from a theistic context entirely. Because that's how I live, without god.


Thanks, Hightor.

We seem essentially to be on the same page.

I appreciate you taking time to answer my questions.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  0  
Reply Wed 5 May, 2021 02:34 pm
@hightor,
Quote:
I'm simply removing myself from a theistic context entirely. Because that's how I live, without god.

This always gives me a chuckle. You, CI (and Frank) claim to divorce yourselves from it, and yet you cannot withhold yourselves from weighing in on it.
Passing strange it is.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 May, 2021 03:18 pm
@Leadfoot,
sorta like you and your interest in biological sci. eh?


Its amazing how we fail to keep our mirrors clean
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 May, 2021 08:13 pm
@farmerman,
I fail to see the comparison.
When and how have I denied the validity of biological science?

The only thing I deny is 'your' nonsensical conclusion that biological science supports the idea of atheism. I say it does just the opposite, and I have given the reasons for my conclusion which you have no answer for.

izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 May, 2021 10:39 pm
@Leadfoot,
Really?

It's obvious. Fm hit the nail square on the head.
0 Replies
 
 

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