Are atheists being more illogical than agnostics?

@carnaticmystery,

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one is one. more than one is more than one. learn maths.

You're so narrow-minded! Non-non-duality goes way beyond mathematics and over-rule their petty paradoxes...

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there is no possible philosophy which can supersede non duality

Just because you fail miserably to move beyond naïve non-duality doesn't mean it's the ultimate truth. It's just the present limit to your understanding... ;-)

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@Olivier5,

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You're so narrow-minded! Non-non-duality goes way beyond mathematics and over-rule their petty paradoxes...

yes, exactly. it goes beyond the number one, which is no longer non duality. it doesn't matter how many paradoxes you dream up in mathematics, the idea of singularity or multiplicity is always going to be contrasting. if you say non-nonduality, then you are talking about multiplicity, and nothing more. if you believe multiplicity is the special non-nonduality, then congrats to you, enjoy your dumbfuck philosophy.

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Just because you fail miserably to move beyond naïve non-duality doesn't mean it's the ultimate truth. It's just the present limit to your understanding... ;-)

again, anyone who thinks they can move 'beyond' non duality is going beyond one, into multiplicity, or back into duality.

the limit to anybody's understanding of nonduality is the understanding of its absolute nature, that it can never be superseded. only a naive fool such as yourself keeps pretending that "no, i can make up anything which is one better than any philosophy, by just negating that philosophy." hahahah.

congrats, you thought of 'duality', the same philosophy by which the entire world runs. you are truly remarkable.

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@carnaticmystery,

Are you depressed?

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@carnaticmystery,

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he idea of singularity or multiplicity is always going to be contrasting.

Only for the narrow-minded like you... People whose mind is not limited by non-duality can see beyond its petty contradictions. Remember that there are no limits to your levels of conscience... Don't make of non-duality an artificial limit. Non-non-duality -- which is really only a non-affirming contradiction of non-duality, it does not affirm anything, really -- is much more enlightening... ;-)

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you thought of 'duality', the same philosophy by which the entire world runs.

I suppose you mean that I abide or go by duality, and yes I do. It works well for me, thank you very much. That or non-non-duality...

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@Olivier5,

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idea of singularity or multiplicity is always going to be contrasting.

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Only for the narrow-minded like you... People whose mind is not limited by non-duality can see beyond its petty contradictions.

no. singularity vs multiplicity are two concepts, which are always contrasting, no matter what you try and say. whether you believe in either one makes no difference, the concepts are opposites and cannot coexist. ie, an object can either be singular or multiple, not both.

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Remember that there are no limits to your levels of conscience... Don't make of non-duality an artificial limit.

i never said non duality is a limit, haha, i have said many times that i question non duality itself, and this eternal endless questioning of it is itself what non duality is. the questioner and the question are one.

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Non-non-duality -- which is really only a non-affirming contradiction of non-duality, it does not affirm anything, really -- is much more enlightening... ;-)

exactly, and to reject non duality is a dualistic position which can never be 'enlightening' as you say, unless you consider duality the ultimate truth. ie you consider yourself eternally separate from other things. haha.

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I suppose you mean that I abide or go by duality, and yes I do. It works well for me, thank you very much. That or non-non-duality...

yes, meaning you consider yourself totally separate from the rest of the universe. you can pretend that 'works for you', but the fact that you have read up on various non dual philosophies, and you use words such as 'enlightening', means that you are interested in finding out some ultimate truth. if you were truly ok with being totally separate (duality), you would never bother with anything, especially not continuously responding to me.

all you need to understand is that non duality does not remove individuality, it integrates it with universality.

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@carnaticmystery,

carnaticmystery wrote:

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idea of singularity or multiplicity is always going to be contrasting.

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Only for the narrow-minded like you... People whose mind is not limited by non-duality can see beyond its petty contradictions.

no. singularity vs multiplicity are two concepts, which are always contrasting, no matter what you try and say. whether you believe in either one makes no difference, the concepts are opposites and cannot coexist. ie, an object can either be singular or multiple, not both.

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Remember that there are no limits to your levels of conscience... Don't make of non-duality an artificial limit.

i never said non duality is a limit, haha, i have said many times that i question non duality itself, and this eternal endless questioning of it is itself what non duality is. the questioner and the question are one.

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Non-non-duality -- which is really only a non-affirming contradiction of non-duality, it does not affirm anything, really -- is much more enlightening... ;-)

exactly, and to reject non duality is a dualistic position which can never be 'enlightening' as you say, unless you consider duality the ultimate truth. ie you consider yourself eternally separate from other things. haha.

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I suppose you mean that I abide or go by duality, and yes I do. It works well for me, thank you very much. That or non-non-duality...

yes, meaning you consider yourself totally separate from the rest of the universe. you can pretend that 'works for you', but the fact that you have read up on various non dual philosophies, and you use words such as 'enlightening', means that you are interested in finding out some ultimate truth. if you were truly ok with being totally separate (duality), you would never bother with anything, especially not continuously responding to me.

all you need to understand is that non duality does not remove individuality, it integrates it with universality.

You are defending your "non-duality" guess with the same fervor and logic that Catholics defend their guesses about "the divinity of Jesus", "the trinity" and "transubstantiation"...which is to say, with lots and lots of fervor...and damn near no logic, CM.

Interesting to watch! Entertaining. And it gives some insights into how easy it is for a person to become so invested in a guess about REALITY...that it becomes a controlling factor in their lives.

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@carnaticmystery,

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i have said many times that i question non duality itself, and this eternal endless questioning of it is itself what non duality is.

Don't despair -- you may one day realise, through all this questioning, that non-duality is in fact easily transcended by non-non-duality... Or you may not, depends on your smarts.

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to reject non duality is a dualistic position

You have not yet mastered the art of non-affirming negations, have you?

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if you were truly ok with being totally separate (duality), you would never bother with anything, especially not continuously responding to me.

This is MY VERY ARGUMENT that you are recycling here... Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

For your information, duality and separation are two different concepts. One can be together and dual, just like the ying-yang symbol. E.g. body and my mind are "dual" but united.

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@Olivier5,

New post.
I know that both atheists and agnostics are believers.
Believers may be right or wrong and usually have to wait beyond a lifetime to know the truth.
Both categories hope they are right and defend their positions vehemently.
After all, no-one wants to be proved wrong.
A Faith can be beneficial to some but can cause heartache for too many people.

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@rhymer,

rhymer wrote:

New post.
I know that both atheists and agnostics are believers.

No you don't.

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Believers may be right or wrong and usually have to wait beyond a lifetime to know the truth.

Quite right.

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@rhymer,

Both are believers of what?

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@Olivier5,

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You have not yet mastered the art of non-affirming negations, have you?

lol, why should i master such a petty art, rofl. seems pretty self explanatory to me. you think you are simply negating non duality, and not affirming duality? unfortunately, non duality is itself already a nonaffirming negation. it is negating duality, and not affirming ANYTHING else, except that duality is always illusory and there is some union possible between whatever duality is perceived.

so, you are taking your favourite phrase, a non affirming negation, and nonaffirmingly negating it again. so i think i have mastered your 'art' quite well, and it is you is unable to see that that an endless stream of nonaffirming negations, each nonaffirmingly negating the previous one, is pointless, and you may as well stick with the first one: non duality.

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if you were truly ok with being totally separate (duality), you would never bother with anything, especially not continuously responding to me.

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This is MY VERY ARGUMENT that you are recycling here... Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

rofl, what is your argument? that you are not ok with being separate? that implies that there is something in you which is one with the entire universe, or at least one with something outside of you, because you don't want to be separate from things.

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For your information, duality and separation are two different concepts. One can be together and dual, just like the ying-yang symbol. E.g. body and my mind are "dual" but united.

yes, but the togetherness or nonduality is always more ultimate or all encompassing than the perceived duality. if you accept that there is even the tiniest connection between body and mind, then they are not separate anymore, no matter how small the link is. to see body/universe/mind as one is therefore always a more primary and wholly correct way of defining it.

i am only responding to you because your responses carry some weight as opposed to frank. ie, you seem to be at least investigating non duality, and trying to negate it, as opposed to frank who just blindly insults me.

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@Germlat,

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Both are believers of what?

anything. they are believers because they refuse to stop believing things, or at least question the believing process.

an atheist only believes god doesn't exist, because he believes in certain definitions of god which he equates with impossible to exist in reality. all ideas of existence and reality are also beliefs.

an agnostic believes that a complete understanding of whether god does or does not exist is impossible. again, this is just a belief based on their own experience, they are unable to reconcile the ideas of god and reality, so they assume it must be impossible for all humanity.

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@carnaticmystery,

A pity that you can't understand the beauty and depth of non non duality... But hey, some minds are narrower than others, right? Maybe one day you'll see the ultimate truth... Until then, just keep pretending...

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@Olivier5,

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A pity that you can't understand the beauty and depth of non non duality... But hey, some minds are narrower than others, right? Maybe one day you'll see the ultimate truth... Until then, just keep pretending...

if for you, non non duality is an experiential questioning of nonduality, then i understand the beauty and depth, which is then limitless. i could just say 'non non non duality' has more beauty and depth, and we could go on forever.

my mind isn't at all too narrow to accept questioning non duality. but to think that you have proved 'non duality' wrong by clinging to non non duality, then unfortunately it is your own mind which needs some work.

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@carnaticmystery,

carnaticmystery wrote:

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A pity that you can't understand the beauty and depth of non non duality... But hey, some minds are narrower than others, right? Maybe one day you'll see the ultimate truth... Until then, just keep pretending...

if for you, non non duality is an experiential questioning of nonduality, then i understand the beauty and depth, which is then limitless. i could just say 'non non non duality' has more beauty and depth, and we could go on forever.

my mind isn't at all too narrow to accept questioning non duality. but to think that you have proved 'non duality' wrong by clinging to non non duality, then unfortunately it is your own mind which needs some work.

I would hope you are correct that your mind is not at all too narrow to accept questioning non duality. That would be a welcome relief from your constant assertions that "non duality" has to be the REALITY.

It may indeed be the REALITY, CM...but you cannot arrive there logically...or through rhetoric...as you seem so intent on suggesting you have done.

In the past when I have suggested that, you usually respond by denying that you are doing that.

The best way to show that you are not...IS TO STOP DOING IT.

It seems almost certain that none of us know what the REALITY is; that it could be variations on the several different things that have been suggested here by several different people; and it may be so different from what any of us are able to suggest that none of us are even close to the truth.

Whatever it is...it IS.

But if you truly do have a mind open enough to question it...then do the questioning in some real form...rather than the occasional denial of being cemented into a position.

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@carnaticmystery,

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i could just say 'non non non duality' has more beauty and depth, and we could go on forever.

I was about to say. Non non non duality is the latest thing!

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@carnaticmystery,

Everything is a belief according to one's existence .

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@Frank Apisa,

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I would hope you are correct that your mind is not at all too narrow to accept questioning non duality. That would be a welcome relief from your constant assertions that "non duality" has to be the REALITY.

never asserted that non duality is the REALITY. i assert that it is a philosophy which best allows the question of 'reality' to be investigated, and it ultimately resolves the question. this does not mean non duality is now the reality. of course it isn't, it is a simple philosophy made of words and concepts. however, what it can achieve is a dissolution of all words and concepts, leading to a better understanding of whatever you want to define as reality. if you want to define non duality is reality, then that is your choice.

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It may indeed be the REALITY, CM...but you cannot arrive there logically...or through rhetoric...as you seem so intent on suggesting you have done.

non duality is certainly a philosophy which can be approached purely logically. i am not suggesting any such thing like non duality is the reality. however, if one wants to make such a suggestion, it is certainly logically possible. if you define reality as experiential truth, then non duality is always and eternally reality. however, i don't ultimately define any such words, so non duality can not be' reality' if you don't want it to be.

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In the past when I have suggested that, you usually respond by denying that you are doing that.

The best way to show that you are not...IS TO STOP DOING IT.

i am not trying to show you anything, nor am i 'doing anything' like suggesting that non duality is reality.you are simply afraid of facing your own reality, whatever you think it is.

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It seems almost certain that none of us know what the REALITY is; that it could be variations on the several different things that have been suggested here by several different people; and it may be so different from what any of us are able to suggest that none of us are even close to the truth.

Whatever it is...it IS.

all of that comes from the one basic assumption: 'there is a reality, things are as they seem.' things 'seeming almost certain'. anything 'could be', or it could be any variation. you don't see that you are just churning out words which all just mean 'i have no clue about anything'. it is pointless.

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But if you truly do have a mind open enough to question it...then do the questioning in some real form...rather than the occasional denial of being cemented into a position.

everything i think, say or do is an open minded questioning of non duality, reality, truth and any other words you find important. i don't need to deny being cemented in any position. as i said, i support the nondual philosophy completely, which does not mean never questioning it, as would be the case in probably all other philosophies. in order to fully support non duality, one must be questioning everything, at all times, eternally. but it comes naturally, so there is no effort in doing so.

i responded to you because you have now overtaken olivier in the intellectual level of response, congrats.

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@Germlat,

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Everything is a belief according to one's existence .

meaning what exactly. one's existence is unknowable (in entirety) and unexplainable. all beliefs coming from it are limited as such. the word 'everything' implies beyond one's own existence. so how can everything be a belief, does nothing outside your own existence exist?

this is the difference between non duality and nihilism. non duality does not deny the appearance or 'existence' of the 'other', or the external universe.

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@carnaticmystery,

carnaticmystery wrote:

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I would hope you are correct that your mind is not at all too narrow to accept questioning non duality. That would be a welcome relief from your constant assertions that "non duality" has to be the REALITY.

never asserted that non duality is the REALITY. i assert that it is a philosophy which best allows the question of 'reality' to be investigated, and it ultimately resolves the question. this does not mean non duality is now the reality. of course it isn't, it is a simple philosophy made of words and concepts. however, what it can achieve is a dissolution of all words and concepts, leading to a better understanding of whatever you want to define as reality. if you want to define non duality is reality, then that is your choice.

So you acknowledge that the world may not be a non-dual world at all.

You also acknowledge you do not know if it is or if it isn't.

But you still want to maintain the self-serving, gratuitous absurdity that non-duality is "a philosophy which best allows the question of 'reality' to be investigated."

Have you wondered why?

It makes no sense.

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It may indeed be the REALITY, CM...but you cannot arrive there logically...or through rhetoric...as you seem so intent on suggesting you have done.

non duality is certainly a philosophy which can be approached purely logically.

So can Christianity...and duality...and naive realism.

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i am not suggesting any such thing like non duality is the reality. however, if one wants to make such a suggestion, it is certainly logically possible.

So are almost all of the others.

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if you define reality as experiential truth, then non duality is always and eternally reality. however, i don't ultimately define any such words, so non duality can not be' reality' if you don't want it to be.

Not sure what you are trying to say here.

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In the past when I have suggested that, you usually respond by denying that you are doing that.

The best way to show that you are not...IS TO STOP DOING IT.

i am not trying to show you anything, nor am i 'doing anything' like suggesting that non duality is reality.you are simply afraid of facing your own reality, whatever you think it is.

I have no idea of what the true nature of the REALITY of existence is...and I freely acknowledge that.

You occasionally acknowledge that you do not know either...but then you set about explaining what it is.

You ought really to consider STOP DOING THAT.

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It seems almost certain that none of us know what the REALITY is; that it could be variations on the several different things that have been suggested here by several different people; and it may be so different from what any of us are able to suggest that none of us are even close to the truth.

Whatever it is...it IS.

all of that comes from the one basic assumption: 'there is a reality, things are as they seem.' things 'seeming almost certain'. anything 'could be', or it could be any variation. you don't see that you are just churning out words which all just mean 'i have no clue about anything'. it is pointless.

You are the one churning out words...often contradictory of other words you churn out.

Do you know what the true nature of REALITY is?

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But if you truly do have a mind open enough to question it...then do the questioning in some real form...rather than the occasional denial of being cemented into a position.

everything i think, say or do is an open minded questioning of non duality, reality, truth and any other words you find important. i don't need to deny being cemented in any position. as i said, i support the nondual philosophy completely, which does not mean never questioning it, as would be the case in probably all other philosophies. in order to fully support non duality, one must be questioning everything, at all times, eternally. but it comes naturally, so there is no effort in doing so.

If you truly have an open mind on this issue, CM...just say "I do not know what the true nature of the REALITY of existence is"...and if you want to make a blind guess that it is this non-duality...just say, "My blind guess, though, is that it is a non-duality world."

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i responded to you because you have now overtaken olivier in the intellectual level of response, congrats.

Thank you for whatever you were congratulating me.

1 Reply

Are atheists being more illogical than agnostics?

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