43
   

Are atheists being more illogical than agnostics?

Forums: Religion, General, Senseless, Yes, Semantics
Email this Topic • Print this Page
 
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Sat 15 Mar, 2014 07:30 am
@Frank Apisa,
How do you know there is an ultimate truth, if you admit that we may be unable to get to it? I thought you couldn't say anything certain about "ultimate reality". Now you're saying that it can by itself produce some "truth", that it is in some sort of "true state of affairs". How do you know that?

You just can't imagine otherwise. Which does not mean you can prove it.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Sat 15 Mar, 2014 07:32 am
@Frank Apisa,
You are confusing truth with objects. You have no idea what truth is.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 15 Mar, 2014 07:45 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

How do you know there is an ultimate truth, if you admit that we may be unable to get to it?


Because if there were no Ultimate Truth...that would be the Ultimate Truth.

Why don't you stop?

Quote:
I thought you couldn't say anything certain about "ultimate reality".


Well then stop "thinking" because you are not doing it correctly.

Have you ever heard me say "Whatever IS...IS?" (I've probably said that several hundreds of times.) That IS saying something with absolute certainty about the Ultimate Reality.

We may not know what it is...but whatever it IS...that IS what it IS.


Quote:
Now you're saying that it can by itself produce some "truth", that it is in some sort of "true state of affairs". How do you know that?


You are not getting this because you are determined not to get it, Olivier.

Are you French? Or are you an American pretending to be French?

I do not know the answers to those questions...or all the subtleties inherent in those questions.

You do.

If you are deceiving us on that...then the truth is simply not available to us. But the truth IS whatever it IS.

Quote:
You just can't imagine otherwise. Which does not mean you can prove it.


Stop with this, Olivier. It is painful (albeit somewhat enjoyable) to watch you squirm like this.

Whatever actually IS...whether we humans know it or not...IS what IS.

The truth is the truth no matter what.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 15 Mar, 2014 07:46 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

You are confusing truth with objects. You have no idea what truth is.


I am not confusing truth with objects at all. That does not even play a part in this discussion...except in your attempts to dodge having to acknowledge you are wrong.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Sat 15 Mar, 2014 07:58 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
The truth is the truth no matter what.

And you know that because?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 15 Mar, 2014 08:22 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
The truth is the truth no matter what.

And you know that because?


Because it cannot be any other way...except to someone trying desperately not to have to acknowledge being wrong.

The only alternative to "There is an Ultimate Truth"...

...is...

"There is no Ultimate Truth."

But that would make that the Ultimate Truth.

Is is unsustainable.

It is like the sentence "This sentence is false."

If the sentence is true...then it is false.

If it is false...then it is true...which would make it false.

Come to grips with the fact that you may be wrong once in a while...and acknowledge this is one of those times.

Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 15 Mar, 2014 08:22 am
@Frank Apisa,
I notice you did not touch that French issue.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Sat 15 Mar, 2014 08:32 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Because it cannot be any other way...

Because you CANNOT THINK of how it could be otherwise? Don't limit the universe to the narrow confines of your imagination. Just because you cannot imagine a 4th or a 5th dimension doesn't mean they don't exist.

Quote:
But that would make that the Ultimate Truth.

I guess you have a funny definition of "ultimate" then. To me, ultimate means the last one. The final truth. The terminus station on the journey to knowledge. Universal knowledge if you want. The truth after which enough is said. The true theory of everything. This is how CM and I used the term in this thread. CM who was peddling nihilism as the "ultimate truth". I was just saying that this last station on the journey may not exist and that one should be circumspect about such claims of "ultimate truth".

So how would YOU define "ultimate", then? Why do you consider everything I say so "ultimate"?
Olivier5
 
  1  
Sat 15 Mar, 2014 08:34 am
@Frank Apisa,
Is that an issue for you, that I'd be French?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 15 Mar, 2014 08:50 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
Because it cannot be any other way...

Because you CANNOT THINK of how it could be otherwise? Don't limit the universe to the narrow confines of your imagination. Just because you cannot imagine a 4th or a 5th dimension doesn't mean they don't exist.



Olivier...if you cannot grasp that the truth is the truth (which is a tautology)...you simply are not intellectually equipped to deal with issues such as this. I have always considered you a reasonably intelligent individual, but you are showing yourself to be much less.

Quote:
Quote:
But that would make that the Ultimate Truth.

I guess you have a funny definition of "ultimate" then. To me, ultimate means the last one. The final truth. The terminus station on the journey to knowledge. Universal knowledge if you want. The truth after which enough is said. The true theory of everything. This is how CM and I used the term in this thread. CM who was peddling nihilism as the "ultimate truth". I was just saying that this last station on the journey may not exist and that one should be circumspect about such claims of "ultimate truth".


Just acknowledge that you were wrong, Olivier. You'd be much better off.

Quote:
So how would YOU define "ultimate", then? Why do you consider everything I say so "ultimate"?


Since you cannot understand and acknowledge a tautology like, "the truth is the truth"...why should I bother to play this game you are playing in order to evade saying that you are wrong?

C'mon! Wink
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 15 Mar, 2014 08:51 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Is that an issue for you, that I'd be French?


That you be honest...is an issue with me if we are to discuss the kinds of issues we discuss.

If you are a liar...it makes a difference.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Sat 15 Mar, 2014 09:02 am
@Frank Apisa,
I am asking: What do you mean by ultimate?

Be a man and answer that one.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Sat 15 Mar, 2014 09:02 am
@Frank Apisa,
I am not a liar.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 15 Mar, 2014 09:04 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

I am asking: What do you mean by ultimate?

Be a man and answer that one.


Like I said, if you cannot even understand and acknowledge a tautology...why bother?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 15 Mar, 2014 09:05 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

I am not a liar.


Only you know that for sure...and if you are, you have to live with it.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Sat 15 Mar, 2014 09:16 am
@Frank Apisa,
Coward.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 15 Mar, 2014 09:22 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Coward.


Coming from you...all I got was a huge laugh!

I've already described the Ultimate Truth to you a half dozen times. This latest attempt at dodging the obvious (that you were wrong) has become a comedy act.

And you are good at it, I'll give you that. Wink

So...you are French...and you are not a liar.
http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/laughing/crying-with-laughter.gif
Olivier5
 
  1  
Sat 15 Mar, 2014 10:53 am
@Frank Apisa,
You are indeed a joker. And a coward. You never defined "ultimate". You are afraid of your own words.

"There is no ultimate truth" is not in itself the ultimate truth. It is not a true theory of everything. It is only a proposition about theories of everything. "Theories of everything" are not equal to "everything", and thus, a theory about theories of everything is not a theory of everything...

Olivier5
 
  1  
Sat 15 Mar, 2014 10:56 am
@Frank Apisa,
Are you a liar, Frank?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 15 Mar, 2014 11:20 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

You are indeed a joker. And a coward. You never defined "ultimate". You are afraid of your own words.

"There is no ultimate truth" is not in itself the ultimate truth. It is not a true theory of everything. It is only a proposition about theories of everything. "Theories of everything" are not equal to "everything", and thus, a theory about theories of everything is not a theory of everything...




Give it up, Olivier...the only person you are fooling is yourself.

The Ultimate Truth is whatever actually IS...and you know it. Now, grow a pair and finally acknowledge that you were wrong.
 

Related Topics

What if no religions are correct, but there still is a God? - Question by neologist
We are all like little children who often say: "Mom, Dad, leave me alone, I want to be on my own". - Question by Leaffan
How can we be sure that all religions are wrong? - Discussion by reasoning logic
Beyond tribalism; How well does your religious label serve you? - Discussion by MattDavis
Is religion responsible for the opposition to peace in the Israel-Palestine conflict? - Question by maxdancona
Concern for Religious Freedom or Preaching Political Messages? - Discussion by wandeljw
Why People Seek Solace In Gods. - Question by mark noble
Catholic remarried couples should abstain from sex - Question by Tes yeux noirs
How can a good God allow suffering - Question by SawyerMentink
Religion and Fear - Discussion by TomTomBinks
A question for athiests - Question by onevoice
 
  1. Forums
  2. » Are atheists being more illogical than agnostics?
  3. » Page 64
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 3.56 seconds on 12/25/2024 at 06:27:01
▲ ▼