43
   

Are atheists being more illogical than agnostics?

Forums: Religion, General, Senseless, Yes, Semantics
Email this Topic • Print this Page
 
 
Olivier5
 
  2  
Fri 14 Mar, 2014 10:07 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
The Ultimate Truth is the actual state of ALL THAT IS.

Maybe ALL THAT IS cannot be described as being in one particular actual state. Maybe that "state of all that is" is simply unknown, unknowable, and inexistent.

Do you have any reason to believe that "all that is" can be described as being in one particular state?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Fri 14 Mar, 2014 11:15 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
The Ultimate Truth is the actual state of ALL THAT IS.

Maybe ALL THAT IS cannot be described as being in one particular actual state.


Maybe! If that is the case, though, THAT IS WHAT IS.

Quote:
Maybe that "state of all that is" is simply unknown, unknowable, and inexistent.


Maybe! If that is the case, though, THAT IS WHAT IS>

Quote:
Do you have any reason to believe that "all that is" can be described as being in one particular state?


I do not do believing, Olivier. I should have mentioned that earlier.

If you are asking if I guess that "all that is" can be described as being in one particular state...

...I would respond...

...I have absolutely no idea and any guess that I would make would be a totally blind guess of no value whatsoever.

But I do know this...whatever the case actually is...that is the TRUTH...that is the REALITY.

I've pretty much stated that same thing several times already before.

What is it about that that mystifies you?
Olivier5
 
  2  
Fri 14 Mar, 2014 12:42 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Quote:
Maybe that "state of all that is" is simply unknown, unknowable, and inexistent.

Maybe!

Ok, so maybe the "Ultimate Truth" does not exist. Thanks for conceding the point.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Fri 14 Mar, 2014 02:00 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
Quote:
Maybe that "state of all that is" is simply unknown, unknowable, and inexistent.

Maybe!

Ok, so maybe the "Ultimate Truth" does not exist. Thanks for conceding the point.


What is wrong with you, Olivier?

IF THE ULIMATE TRUTH DOES NOT EXIST...then that IS THE ULTIMATE TRUTH.

By proposing that the Ultimate Truth does not exist...you are proposing something that cannot, BY DEFINITION, exist.

Okay...I understand you are not man enough...or ethical enough...to concede you are wrong.

But stop the tortured logic.

It is making you look like a fool...and that is not necessary.

You can be unethical...and still not be a fool. There is no need for you to try to establish that you are both.
Olivier5
 
  2  
Fri 14 Mar, 2014 03:08 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
IF THE ULTIMATE TRUTH DOES NOT EXIST...then that IS THE ULTIMATE TRUTH.

LOL. Why would it be?

You defined "the Ultimate Truth" as: "the actual state of ALL THAT IS", remember? The proposition "THE ULTIMATE TRUTH DOES NOT EXIST" says absolutely nothing of many things that happen to be, such as that sandwich I had for lunch... I am positive this sandwich existed, but it's not mentioned or described in any way in the phrase "THE ULTIMATE TRUTH DOES NOT EXIST"... Therefore that phrase cannot be the ultimate truth, by your own definition.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Fri 14 Mar, 2014 04:27 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
IF THE ULTIMATE TRUTH DOES NOT EXIST...then that IS THE ULTIMATE TRUTH.

LOL. Why would it be?

You defined "the Ultimate Truth" as: "the actual state of ALL THAT IS", remember? The proposition "THE ULTIMATE TRUTH DOES NOT EXIST" says absolutely nothing of many things that happen to be, such as that sandwich I had for lunch... I am positive this sandwich existed, but it's not mentioned or described in any way in the phrase "THE ULTIMATE TRUTH DOES NOT EXIST"... Therefore that phrase cannot be the ultimate truth, by your own definition.



Go in peace, Olivier.

You have not acknowledged that you are wrong...and I suppose that makes you feel good.

You created the equivalent of "This sentence is not true"...and are sticking with it.

The only way your comment can be true...is if you show it to be false...which means it is false no matter what.

But you will not allow yourself to see that...because your ego gets damaged too quickly.

I come away from this realizing that you really are as minor league as I have been supposing you might be.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Fri 14 Mar, 2014 05:49 pm
@Frank Apisa,
My sentence is a very very small piece of truth, as I see it, and certainly does not qualify as the "Ultimate Truth".

Which would be something like: the truth after which nothing needs to be asked or said anymore. The last, definitive, finally conclusive effort of humankind (or anyone else) to understand the universe!

Flattery will get you nowhere with me. I am just saying this goal of a theory of everything, this quest for the last word in our debate with nature, it will never end.

There is no ultimate truth.

Which does not mean there no truth, along to way to the mythical ultimate truth.

Like: all men will die. It's not the ultimate truth, but it's true.


Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Fri 14 Mar, 2014 07:47 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

My sentence is a very very small piece of truth, as I see it, and certainly does not qualify as the "Ultimate Truth".

Which would be something like: the truth after which nothing needs to be asked or said anymore. The last, definitive, finally conclusive effort of humankind (or anyone else) to understand the universe!

Flattery will get you nowhere with me. I am just saying this goal of a theory of everything, this quest for the last word in our debate with nature, it will never end.

There is no ultimate truth.

Which does not mean there no truth, along to way to the mythical ultimate truth.

Like: all men will die. It's not the ultimate truth, but it's true.





"There is no ultimate truth"...if correct would be an Ultimate Truth.

You have created an assertion that cannot be sustained.

But you lack the integrity to acknowledge that.

Whatever IS, Olivier...IS what IS.

That is the Ultimate Truth...and your refusal to acknowledge it has become a joke.

I love jokes...so I will be sticking with you. http://www.smiley-lol.com/smiley/humour-blague/clown-jonglerie/vil2_clown.gif
Olivier5
 
  1  
Fri 14 Mar, 2014 08:15 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
"There is no ultimate truth"...if correct would be an Ultimate Truth.

No it wouldn't. And there cannot be more than one ultimate truth, as I understand the concept, not several.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Fri 14 Mar, 2014 08:28 pm
@Olivier5,
Simply put, all I am saying is that we may never find a unified theory of everything that works accurately. The world may not be perfectly understandable. The ultimate truth may be a mirage.

And that's okay, cause the desert is beautiful... Smile
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 15 Mar, 2014 06:22 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
"There is no ultimate truth"...if correct would be an Ultimate Truth.

No it wouldn't. And there cannot be more than one ultimate truth, as I understand the concept, not several.


Whatever the truth is...that is the truth...whether anyone knows it or not.

The Ultimate Truth...is the REALITY...whether you want to accept that or not.

Whatever actually IS...that is what IS.

That is the Ultimate Truth.

The fact that your comment is unsustainable is something your ego will not allow you to acknowledge.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 15 Mar, 2014 06:25 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Simply put, all I am saying is that we may never find a unified theory of everything that works accurately.


And that would not change anything that I have said so far.

I am not saying we can understand what actually IS...but whatever IS...it IS.



Quote:
The world may not be perfectly understandable.


We are not talking about understanding it...or whether we can understand it or not.

Whatever IS...IS.


Quote:
The ultimate truth may be a mirage.


IF THE ULTIMATE TRUTH IS A MIRAGE...THEN THAT IS THE ULTIMATE TRUTH.

What is it about you that will not acknowledge that?

Quote:

And that's okay, cause the desert is beautiful... Smile


Apparently almost anything can be "beautiful" to the right beholder.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Sat 15 Mar, 2014 07:09 am
@Frank Apisa,
I don't know about you, but I am talking of whether or not the world is understandable.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Sat 15 Mar, 2014 07:12 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
The Ultimate Truth...is the REALITY

That's not how I define it and it's not how the dictionary defines it. And it's not how you defined it...

If truth was equal to reality, it's opposite, falsehood, would not be real. Yet falsehood is very real... You for instance are full of it.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 15 Mar, 2014 07:15 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

I don't know about you, but I am talking of whether or not the world is understandable.



The "truth" does not depend on "the world" or any humans in it, understanding anything, Olivier.

"The truth" is whatever it is...whether we know it to be the truth or not.

I think the only reason you are narrowing "what you are talking about"...is so that you do not have to acknowledge that when you said what you said...you were wrong!

Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 15 Mar, 2014 07:17 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
The Ultimate Truth...is the REALITY

That's not how I define it and it's not how the dictionary defines it. And it's not how you defined it...

If truth was equal to reality, it's opposite, falsehood, would not be real. Yet falsehood is very real... You for instance are full of it.


Oh, nonsense!

Learn how to grow a spine and the ability to acknowledge when you are wrong, Olivier. It will save you all the trouble of twist and torturing logic in order to avoid acknowledging when you wrong.

Olivier5
 
  1  
Sat 15 Mar, 2014 07:22 am
@Frank Apisa,
I am not wrong. You are just unable to understand what I am talking about.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Sat 15 Mar, 2014 07:23 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
The "truth" does not depend on "the world" or any humans in it, understanding anything, Olivier.

I disagree with that. Truth is not an object.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 15 Mar, 2014 07:25 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

I am not wrong. You are just unable to understand what I am talking about.


You were WRONG when you said there is no ultimate truth.

That is a completely unsustainable comment.

But you are going to try to weasel out of it...and I am going to enjoy showing you that you are not getting away with it.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 15 Mar, 2014 07:26 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
The "truth" does not depend on "the world" or any humans in it, understanding anything, Olivier.

I disagree with that. Truth is not an object.


It doesn't have to be an object, Olivier...except to someone trying like crazy to weasel out of acknowledging that he was wrong.
 

Related Topics

What if no religions are correct, but there still is a God? - Question by neologist
We are all like little children who often say: "Mom, Dad, leave me alone, I want to be on my own". - Question by Leaffan
How can we be sure that all religions are wrong? - Discussion by reasoning logic
Beyond tribalism; How well does your religious label serve you? - Discussion by MattDavis
Is religion responsible for the opposition to peace in the Israel-Palestine conflict? - Question by maxdancona
Concern for Religious Freedom or Preaching Political Messages? - Discussion by wandeljw
Why People Seek Solace In Gods. - Question by mark noble
Catholic remarried couples should abstain from sex - Question by Tes yeux noirs
How can a good God allow suffering - Question by SawyerMentink
Religion and Fear - Discussion by TomTomBinks
A question for athiests - Question by onevoice
 
  1. Forums
  2. » Are atheists being more illogical than agnostics?
  3. » Page 63
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.05 seconds on 12/25/2024 at 07:33:36
▲ ▼