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Are atheists being more illogical than agnostics?

 
 
carnaticmystery
 
  2  
Tue 4 Mar, 2014 09:47 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
I know that you are not a giant pink frog.

well this is just too easy. i won't even bother to use wordplay like igm did.

your assumed 'knowledge' is based on an assumption that giant pink frogs do not exist. this assumption can never be proven, if you would like to try, then go ahead. but simply stating the obvious, (that you or no other human has ever seen one before), is not proof, but good evidence to support that they may not exist.

my definition of knowledge is that it must be provable. given that i believe nothing is provable ultimately, i must concede that no knowledge is possible, other than limited, relative truths which have no ultimate meaning.

your idea that i am not a giant pink frog is a simple, limited concept, based on the obvious idea that most humans using the internet are not actually giant pink frogs who are matrixing into our internet somehow.

i thought you would at least give me something more difficult to work with, like 'i know that this is a screen in front of me'. but instead of me disproving that one, try it for yourself Wink





carnaticmystery
 
  1  
Tue 4 Mar, 2014 09:53 am
@Romeo Fabulini,
Quote:
There's the story of the Indian mystic who belonged to a cult that believes everything is just an illusion.

cool, so a story about an intelligent person. sounds interesting.
Quote:
One day an elephant ran amok down the street so he dodged and took cover like everybody else.

as i said, an intelligent person.
Quote:
Afterwards people jokingly said to him- "If you believe the elephant was just an illusion, why did you run and hide from it?"

i would have asked the people, why are you joking? valid question.

Quote:
Anybody wanna have a crack at guessing what he replied?..

i don't get this? is this somehow the funny part, something about a crack? i dunno. anyway, if you are sincerely asking what he replied, let me take a guess:

"because everything is just an illusion, so why not? within the illusion of existence, an apparent human life emerged as myself. within the illusory human life, some illusory knowledge came to me that elephants are capable of trampling and killing me. that illusory knowledge seemed to cause my illusory human body to avoid being killed by the elephant. now i am being asked by some annoying questions by you illusory fvcks so fvck off while i fvck your illusory mum."
carnaticmystery
 
  1  
Tue 4 Mar, 2014 10:04 am
@Frank Apisa,
i wasn't gonna bother responding to you just cos you're such an annoying ****, but this stuff is good to prove my point further.

Quote:
yes i feel that i 'know' this, even though that seemingly goes against my assertion.


Quote:
It doesn't seemingly go against it...IT GOES AGAINST IT. In fact, it is a direct contradiction of what you are asserting.


actually, it is not a direct contradiction, because i only said i 'feel' i know this. then i go on to explain that feeling further:

Quote:
however, that is my point exactly, that all knowledge appears this way (as true knowledge), but when investigated, is revealed to only be a belief or assumption.

Quote:
That actually is not your point...but I imagine that gibberish sounds good to you, so you use it.

i see. so when i state my point clearly, and you say 'no, that is not your point', that means you must be right. yep sorry bro. and yes, that gibberish does sound good to me, because it is plain and obvious in every human's experience.

you can look at any knowledge you have, and redefine it as only a belief or assumption. it is only because you choose to believe that some things are beyond doubt. but doubt always exists, no matter how infinitesimally small. whether the doubt is over giant pink frogs or anything else, the doubt will always remain, and eternally prove my point.

ps. if you are unable to find doubt in certain 'facts' like the definite 'fact' of a screen in front of you, then you are simply not looking hard enough, or understanding the science of the universe well enough. if you can accept that an infinitesimal doubt exists for everything, (heisenberg's uncertainty principle proves this), then it follows that knowledge is not possible.

but of course, at the limited level where you love your knowledge and your certainty of your own existence, enjoy yourself! why not right?
igm
 
  1  
Tue 4 Mar, 2014 10:10 am
@Romeo Fabulini,
Romeo Fabulini wrote:

There's the story of the Indian mystic who belonged to a cult that believes everything is just an illusion.
One day an elephant ran amok down the street so he dodged and took cover like everybody else.
Afterwards people jokingly said to him- "If you believe the elephant was just an illusion, why did you run and hide from it?"

Anybody wanna have a crack at guessing what he replied?..Smile

Explain the difference between a dream, an illusion and everyday life... and I'll agree you are qualified to talk about the nature of illusion...
0 Replies
 
igm
 
  1  
Tue 4 Mar, 2014 10:19 am
@carnaticmystery,
carnaticmystery wrote:


Quote:
Anybody wanna have a crack at guessing what he replied?..

i don't get this? is this somehow the funny part, something about a crack? i dunno. anyway, if you are sincerely asking what he replied, let me take a guess:


To, 'have a crack' means to attempt something... it's slang.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Tue 4 Mar, 2014 11:26 am
CM seems to have his had up his ass for more reasons
than warmth

I will hereafter be agnostic about the easter bunny.

Therefore I am, by stating to be agnostic, seriously entertaining the illogical. Is that what Apisa is doing? I think so.
Setanta
 
  1  
Tue 4 Mar, 2014 11:29 am
I've never had crack, and considering what it seems to have done to Carnatic Misery, i think i'll forego the pleasure.
0 Replies
 
igm
 
  1  
Tue 4 Mar, 2014 11:30 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

CM seems to have his had up his ass for more reasons
than warmth

I will hereafter be agnostic about the easter bunny.

Therefore I am, by stating to be agnostic, seriously entertaining the illogical. Is that what Apisa is doing? I think so.


I'd like to understand what it is you are saying... but... I've read it twice and I'm still unsure... I'd be interested in your point of view but you'll have to rewrite it...
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Tue 4 Mar, 2014 11:35 am
@carnaticmystery,
carnaticmystery wrote:

i wasn't gonna bother responding to you just cos you're such an annoying ****, but this stuff is good to prove my point further.

Quote:
yes i feel that i 'know' this, even though that seemingly goes against my assertion.


As long as I continue to get you to respond, I really do not care for the excuse you use. But it was entertaining to see you try to rationalize your need to respond.

Quote:
Quote:
It doesn't seemingly go against it...IT GOES AGAINST IT. In fact, it is a direct contradiction of what you are asserting.


actually, it is not a direct contradiction, because i only said i 'feel' i know this. then i go on to explain that feeling further:


Actually, if you read what you actually wrote...you will see that it IS A DIRECT CONTRADICTION. But you contradict yourself so often, I doubt you will ever be truthful enough with yourself to acknowledge it.

Quote:
Quote:
however, that is my point exactly, that all knowledge appears this way (as true knowledge), but when investigated, is revealed to only be a belief or assumption.

Quote:
That actually is not your point...but I imagine that gibberish sounds good to you, so you use it.

i see. so when i state my point clearly, and you say 'no, that is not your point', that means you must be right. yep sorry bro. and yes, that gibberish does sound good to me, because it is plain and obvious in every human's experience.


The gibberish sounds good to you...because you are immersed in gibberish. That is why you have abandoned any pretense of defending a position in favor of just engaging in flame throwing.

I must say that you are no better at throwing flames than at explaining your position coherently.

Quote:
you can look at any knowledge you have, and redefine it as only a belief or assumption.


I already acknowledge that I have very little of what can be called true knowledge...and I actually accept that as so. You, on the other hand, just give lip service to it...and then proceed to bore us all with your "knowledge" of the truth.

Quote:
it is only because you choose to believe that some things are beyond doubt. but doubt always exists, no matter how infinitesimally small. whether the doubt is over giant pink frogs or anything else, the doubt will always remain, and eternally prove my point.


I do not do believing at all...and I do not explain that we don't know anything...and then, as you do, pretend to be "proving" stuff

Quote:
ps. if you are unable to find doubt in certain 'facts' like the definite 'fact' of a screen in front of you, then you are simply not looking hard enough, or understanding the science of the universe well enough. if you can accept that an infinitesimal doubt exists for everything, (heisenberg's uncertainty principle proves this), then it follows that knowledge is not possible.


If you, CM, are not able to see this farce of yours as nonsense...then you are not looking carefully enough.

Quote:
but of course, at the limited level where you love your knowledge and your certainty of your own existence, enjoy yourself! why not right?


I apparently have much less certainty than you.

You are a godsend, though...because you cannot even see how preposterous your position is...which makes it all the more a humorous one.

Keep on truchin', CM. Wink
farmerman
 
  2  
Tue 4 Mar, 2014 11:48 am
@igm,
Atheism frees one of "gods"

Agnosticism states that it is generally free of "gods" but still retains the possibility of their existence
Therefore, in this topic, agnosticism seriously entertains the existence of the illogical and irrational being(ie a "god").

Therefore, by me announcing my agnosticism over the easter bunny, I am seriously entertaining the (whatever the statistical improbability is) existence of an easter bunny.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Tue 4 Mar, 2014 12:04 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

Atheism frees one of "gods"


Some atheists (not many here in A2K) may ASSERT that "atheism frees one of gods", FM...but if there are gods...then no one is "free of them."

Quote:
Agnosticism states that it is generally free of "gods" but still retains the possibility of their existence


Agnosticism states that it is free of "a belief in gods" (and a belief that there are no gods)...because there seems to be no way to know in either direction...and a guess (or belief) really makes no sense.

And of course there is "the possibility" that gods exist, FM, just as there is the possibility that there are no gods.



Quote:
Therefore, in this topic, agnosticism seriously entertains the existence of the illogical and irrational being(ie a "god").


That you consider the existence of a god or gods to be illogical and irrational...is as illogical and irrational as theists who insist there has to be a GOD.

The "illogical and irrational" is an almost laughably self-serving, gratuitous utterance.

You are being unnecessarily and illogically dismissive of the possibility of gods, because of your blind guess that there are no gods.

Quote:
Therefore, by me announcing my agnosticism over the easter bunny, I am seriously entertaining the (whatever the statistical improbability is) existence of an easter bunny.


Good for you. s
farmerman
 
  4  
Tue 4 Mar, 2014 12:30 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
The "illogical and irrational" is an almost laughably self-serving, gratuitous utterance.
Youre still flappin out of the ole butt crack eh Frank? When you cant make an argument, why not try pure insult. Ats ok, New Jersyites get a pass for their lack of politeness by virtue of their toxic environment

As you've repeated your position ad nauseum and always without any facts or substance , you've always sidestepped the issue of "evidence for' by merely saying thatyour opponents have no evidence "against". That's the beauty of atheism, I need no proof in my analyses, you, however, retain a possibility of existence of an irrational being (based on myth, cultural claims nd "Sacred writings"), yet you, nor the other one who merely posts quotes from the Bible , have anything of a foundational nature to even propose your minimal belief(holding out a possibility of something IS, indeed a belief, cause it sure aint a supportable theory).

Since the illogical part is , (like sasquatches and easter bunnies) that you can present NO EVIDENCE that supports any possibility of these supposed gods. So consequently , I call it irrational (as a purely quantitative concept that is lacking in your "possibility of gods..."assertion). You just continuously beat the same phrases to death hoping someone will acquiesce from sheer exhaustion .

Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Tue 4 Mar, 2014 12:49 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

Quote:
The "illogical and irrational" is an almost laughably self-serving, gratuitous utterance.
Youre still flappin out of the ole butt crack eh Frank? When you cant make an argument, why not try pure insult. Ats ok, New Jersyites get a pass for their lack of politeness by virtue of their toxic environment


No insult intended. Your comment WAS gratuitous and self-serving...and it made me laugh.

Quote:
As you've repeated your position ad nauseum and always without any facts or substance...


My position is that I do not know if there are gods or not. THAT IS A FACT. I do not know. And there is plenty of substance there.


Quote:
, you've always sidestepped the issue of "evidence for' by merely saying thatyour opponents have no evidence "against".


I have NEVER said that.

I have explained that anyone asserting that there are gods incurs a burden of proof that they exist. (I personally see no way to meet that burden.)

I have also explained that anyone asserting there are no gods incurs a burden of proof that no gods exist. (I know there is no way to meet that burden.)

I have suggested that a guess in either direction is meaningless. Existence is so mysterious...almost anything may be the REALITY.



Quote:
That's the beauty of atheism, I need no proof in my analyses...


Yeah...you share that irrationality with the theists.



Quote:
, you, however, retain a possibility of existence of an irrational being (based on myth, cultural claims nd "Sacred writings"), yet you, nor the other one who merely posts quotes from the Bible , have anything of a foundational nature to even propose your minimal belief(holding out a possibility of something IS, indeed a belief, cause it sure aint a supportable theory).


Nothing whatever "irrational" about acknowledging that I do not know the true nature of the REALITY of existence, FM. There may be gods involved...there may be no gods.

Your thesis is a joke.

Quote:
Since the illogical part is , (like sasquatches and easter bunnies) that you can present NO EVIDENCE that supports any possibility of these supposed gods.


Why would I have to?

It is "possible" that we are being observed by aliens from other stars. Do I actually have to present "evidence" for that to be a possibility?

It is "possible" that there is no life of any sort on any planet circling any of the 50 nearest stars to Sol. Do I actually have to present "evidence" for that to be a possibility?


Quote:
So consequently , I call it irrational...


You call it "irrational" because you feel like calling it irrational.

It is not irrational...and actually, calling it irrational is itself irrational.


Quote:
(as a purely quantitative concept that is lacking in your "possibility of gods..."assertion). You just continuously beat the same phrases to death hoping someone will acquiesce from sheer exhaustion .


I maintain my position despite lots of objection from people like you. If you don't like people who are determined to maintain their position...deal with someone else.


igm
 
  1  
Tue 4 Mar, 2014 01:12 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

Atheism frees one of "gods"

Agnosticism states that it is generally free of "gods" but still retains the possibility of their existence
Therefore, in this topic, agnosticism seriously entertains the existence of the illogical and irrational being(ie a "god").

Therefore, by me announcing my agnosticism over the easter bunny, I am seriously entertaining the (whatever the statistical improbability is) existence of an easter bunny.

Okay... thanks!
0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Tue 4 Mar, 2014 01:14 pm
Quote:
Frank Apisa said: My position is that I do not know if there are gods or not. THAT IS A FACT. I do not know.

The word "God" is a huge stumbling block for atheists and agnostics, but if we substitute the word "alien" it throws a whole new complexion on things.
Jesus himself was technically an alien-
"I know where I came from and where I am going, but you have no idea where I come from or where I am going....you are of this world, I am not of this world" (John 8:14/ 8:23, Matt 13:35)

And he bent the laws of physics to prove he had access to "alien technology"-
"..even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." (John 10:38)

There had been "alien" visitors before him ("angels") with similar powers, but he was the main front man.
His reception by the human race didn't exactly go smoothly, they killed him!
That's par for the course with alien visitors to earth, Klaatu was met with a slug-
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/klaatushot_zps44a0c011.jpg~original
igm
 
  1  
Tue 4 Mar, 2014 03:55 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Jesus himself was technically an alien-...

...And he bent the laws of physics to prove he had access to "alien technology"-

There had been "alien" visitors before him ("angels") with similar powers, but he was the main front man.

Read your quote again, only this time imagine you are the psychiatrist and who ever wrote the quote is the patient...

Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Tue 4 Mar, 2014 05:05 pm
The snooty priests killed Jesus because they were scared of him and his powers.
Perhaps atheists are also scared of him which is why they still badmouth him to this day?
Christians are not scared of him, he's their main man..Smile
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Tue 4 Mar, 2014 05:43 pm
@Frank Apisa,
So you are also agnostic about easter bunnies?
Unicorns?
farmerman
 
  2  
Tue 4 Mar, 2014 05:44 pm
@igm,
he could just as well quote and believe the scriptures of Marvel Comics with as much conviction.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Tue 4 Mar, 2014 05:50 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

So you are also agnostic about easter bunnies?


The Easter Bunny is a fantasy character depicted as a rabbit bringing Easter eggs.

Why would I be agnostic about that?

I certainly know there is a fantasy character depicted as a rabbit that brings Easter eggs to kids.


Quote:
Unicorns?



You know for a fact there are no unicorns? Not even on the sixth planet out from the 7th nearest star to our Sol?

C'mon, FM.

Do we really have to go through all this nonsense whenever an atheist and a non-atheist/non-theist discuss things?
 

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