Are atheists being more illogical than agnostics?

@Romeo Fabulini,

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Of all the thousands of historical figures, it's totally illogical to single out Jesus and say say "He never existed"..

Unless you're trying to get a whole bunch of religious fanatics to really think about their own religion and how much they don't really know about it. We already know that the list of miracles associated with him is preposterous and derived from pre-existing religions. Don't you think it's important to go even further and figure out whether the man (just as a human being) ever existed as well? Because the evidence for it is not good.

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The Atheists Bible, nothing in it.. Smile

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/ath-bib.gif~original

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Quote:

Rosborne huffed: Don't you think it's important to go even further and figure out whether the man (just as a human being) ever existed as well? Because the evidence for it is not good.

For centuries atheists used to say "Nazareth never existed in Jesus's time", but they were left red-faced and pouting when modern digs revealed ruins of old Nazareth, who do atheists think lived there, Nanny McPhee?.. Smile

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/nazareth-digB.gif

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@Romeo Fabulini,

An atheist is not defined as someone who has an interest in science.

Those who are interested in science (christians, atheists, agnostics etc, etc) but don't have a full understanding of the subject place some faith in science books... but if they learned the science then faith would be replaced by an understanding of the science explained in the science book.

You cannot understand whether god interacts with the world or if he has created a place for you to go after death no matter how hard you study... that is faith and that is the entirety of what you have on the subject of god. Which is as I say fine for the faithful.

I see you're still rehashing all your old material that I've read in all the other threads you've posted on... and you've only been on this site a short time!

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@Romeo Fabulini,

That doesn't bother me. I like physical evidence, it's the only thing you can really rely on. So if they found some then that's good evidence that Nazareth existed, but Nazareth wasn't what we were talking about was it. And just because the town existed doesn't mean that Jesus existed.

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@rosborne979,

Yeh but JL likes acrylic pints instead of oils. SO he is, in some respects, flawed.

The concept of a historical "Jesus" my hqve merit(Ive yet to see convincing evidence from a number of historians with real cred). HOWEVER, we must agree that "Christ", the UPER HERO JESUS of otherworldy powers and a mission from an evidence free Supreme Being, was the creation of two characters who needed attention

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I've said this for years, and it seems to elude some people. It doesn't matter if there ever were such an historical individual--what matters is that so many peole believe there was. That belief is the signal fact, not the historical "truth."

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@carnaticmystery,

carnaticmystery wrote:

if the concept of god is simply the entirety of all existence, then god is that grand universe you are talking about, and does not need to be inferior to itself.

you may say that the 'concept' is still not the 'actual thing', but if people believe god actually IS everything, then there is no contradiction.

If you wish to redefine "God" such that it is a synonym for "Universe", then your point is valid.

But most people don't think of God and Universe as the same thing. And even Pantheists and Deists don't equate the concepts of God and Universe, they simply drop the monotheistic view and seek divinity within nature. And that's not the same as equating the concepts.

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@rosborne979,

You don't need to be a classical pantheist adoring animal spirits or the Sun to look at God as being Nature or the Universe at large, if anything the mathematical unity in nature does away with adoring specific patterns as separate entities own their own merit.
I personally like very much the metaphor that God is love in the more abstract sense that love is unity.
(as I like to think about it, mathematical unity)

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@rosborne979,

Quote:

If you wish to redefine "God" such that it is a synonym for "Universe", then your point is valid.

But most people don't think of God and Universe as the same thing. And even Pantheists and Deists don't equate the concepts of God and Universe, they simply drop the monotheistic view and seek divinity within nature. And that's not the same as equating the concepts.

i don't know which 'most people' you refer to, because most people in the world are not christians. perhaps the christian view of god is not 'everything in existence', i haven't looked into it.

total number of hindus/muslims/buddhists combined in the world significantly outweigh christians. all their philosophies ultimately boil down to a single unified 'god', which is defined as everything in existence. hindus call it brahman, muslims call it allah, buddhists call it buddhahood or enlightenment.

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Quote:

Rosborne said: We already know that the list of miracles associated with him is preposterous and derived from pre-existing religions

You gotta be jivin us boy.. Smile

After Jesus's execution, the first of 27 books began to be written about him (the New T) but NOBODY at any time ever said "Hey that's not true, I lived in Israel throughout the Jesus period and no miracles and stuff ever happened!"
That's because the miracles were witnessed by so many bystanders, family members and friends, Roman soldiers etc that they couldn't be dismissed as fiction.. Smile

The 37 MIRACLES OF JESUS http://www.bcbsr.com/survey/jmrcls.html
"..even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."- (John 10:38)
Bringing little girl back to life
Bringing widows son back to life
Bringing Lazarus back to life
Stilling the storm
Feeding 4000
Walking on sea
Feeding 5000
Coin in fishes mouth
Withering fig tree
Big catch of fish
Water into wine
Another big fish catch
Healing leper
Healing Centurions servant
Healing Peters mother-in-law
Healing sick at evening
Healing paralysed man
Healing haemorraging woman
Healing two blind men
Healing mans withered hand
Healing Canaanite womans daughter
Healing boy with seizures
Healing blind man
Healing deaf and dumb man
Healing another blind man
Healing crippled woman
Healing man with dropsy
Healing 10 lepers
Restoring a cut-off ear
Healing noblemans sons fever
Healing crippled man at Bethesda
Healing a born-blind man
Casting out demons into pigs
Curing a mute lunatic
Casting out dirty spirit
Curing a possessed blind-dumb man
Appeared to his followers after his death

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PS- earlier I posted a 'Kirk atheist impression' vid, so in the interests of fair play here's a vid of so-called "christian" Pentecostalists speaking in tongues which means babbling like apes and getting christianity a bad name-

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@carnaticmystery,

Now you're just making **** up so that you won't have to admit you were wrong. Hindus believe in more than one god. Muslims believe in the same Abrahamic god as the Jews and Christians. Buddhists don't believe in any god. You've failed miserably to make your case.

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@Setanta,

Quote:

Now you're just making **** up so that you won't have to admit you were wrong. Hindus believe in more than one god. Muslims believe in the same Abrahamic god as the Jews and Christians. Buddhists don't believe in any god. You've failed miserably to make your case.

haha, ok mr religion. i will admit, for your sake, that i don't know much about any religion other than hinduism, which certainly does not 'believe in more than one god'. all the 30 million odd deities that exist in hinduism are accepted by all Hindus as various forms of ONE all-encompassing existence - brahman. hinduism is just open to worshipping anything as 'god', because everything is god.

buddhism...they don't believe in a 'god', but neither does hinduism technically. the word brahman only gets equated with 'god' for language benefit, but it is actually the exact same concept as buddhahood or enlightenment. you could say buddha is the hindu who decided that the 30million deities is enough already, and lets cut them all out and just focus on eliminating suffering. so nirvana/enlightenment/buddhahood are all synonymous with brahman/non-duality. a single all-encompassing truth which includes all potential existence.

islam, i admit i may be wrong, just wikipedia'd and found it clearly states they believe in one god. which is the source of everything, knows everything, whatever.

so perhaps you are right about islam and christianity both seeing god as not synonymous with 'the universe'.

but hinduism definitely does. brahman is synonymous with 'the universe and all existence'.

and buddhism, by denying a god, and applying a system for enlightenment in life, is also basically saying that the only 'god' is this 'universe' and the life in it.

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@carnaticmystery,

You'd choke to death rather than admit you were wrong.

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From Wikipedia, whose article i will believe rather than your self-jusiticatory maundering:

Quote:

In Hinduism, the concept of God varies from one sect to another and from one book to another. Hinduism is set in a diverse system of thought with beliefs spanning henotheism, monotheism, polytheism, panentheism, pantheism and monism among others. It is often aptly termed monistic theism and even open monotheism by some scholars, but is not purely polytheistic as outsiders perceive it to be.

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@Romeo Fabulini,

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

That's because the miracles were witnessed by so many bystanders, family members and friends, Roman soldiers etc that they couldn't be dismissed as fiction..

That's the best you can do? A bunch of rumors from villagers who lived over 2000 years ago?

Right now there are over a million people alive on this planet who will swear up and down that they have personally witnessed their favorite yogi-guru levitate off the floor and float around the room. But that doesn't make it true. And those people are alive today.

Beyond the simple fact that there isn't a shred of evidence for any of the miracles Jesus was supposed to have performed, we already know that the biggest items from his bag of tricks were borrowed explicitly from myths which had been around for centuries already.

It doesn't matter how many ridiculous rumors from 2000 year old, multiply translated, partially destroyed stone tablets that you trot out, the evidence outweighs them all. And the evidence is very clear, the miracles attributed to Jesus were all attributed to many other myths from many other cultures long before Jesus ever existed (or was supposed to have existed, because there's no good evidence that the man ever existed either).

Face it buddy boy, you're in love with a fantasy.

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@Setanta,

Quote:

with beliefs spanning henotheism, monotheism, polytheism, panentheism, pantheism and monism among others

yeah, what does that say, idiot? "beliefs SPANNING...". exactly what i said. hinduism is open to ANY BELIEFS, they condemn nothing. the original scriptures point to a single truth - brahman.

buddhism evolved from hinduism, and is a further look at just the aspect of 'removing suffering'. when you become one with 'brahman', you become enlightened or attain buddhahood.

islam and christianity are the 2 major religions of the world currently, and both have their idea of god as an 'all powerful being who created and controls this universe'.

i just realised something. islam and christianity are really the only religions that DO NOT consider the ultimate 'god' as synonymous with the 'entire universe'. because these 2 religions separate the universe from god, that is why they are destroying each at war over this 'universe', in the name of their 'god'.

so which philosophy is better? hinduism/buddhism/nonduality, or islam/christianity/war/death?

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Quote:

Carnatic said: so which philosophy is better? hinduism/buddhism/nonduality, or islam/christianity/war/death?

Well, Christianity is the only one with the Son of God himself as its central core, which kinda gives it an edge.. Wink

Buddhism was simply a human being (buddha) giving us his best guesses and hunches.
Islam's Mohammed too was just a human.
Hinduism incorporates an "all men are NOT created equal" belief-

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/sub3/caste2.gif

"Discrimination against India's lowest Hindu castes is technically illegal. But try telling that to the 160 million Untouchables, who face violent reprisals if they forget their place"
http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0306/feature1/

The Bible says different--
"[God] raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory:" (1 Sam 2:8 KJV)

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@Romeo Fabulini,

Quote:

Well, Christianity is the only one with the Son of God himself as its central core, which kinda gives it an edge..Wink

because of this disgusting logic i can no longer take anything you say seriously. every religion claims a god. to limit god into a form which can have a 'son' is the 'edge' your religion has. congratulations. hindus and buddhists leave the concept of 'god' as the 'everythingness' that it is.

Quote:

Buddhism was simply a human being (buddha) giving us his best guesses and hunches.

so was jesus, idiot. in my opinion, both were intelligent, great people. in your idiotic limited opinion, jesus is the real god's son, and buddha is just some fool. and lets kill all the muslims to preserve our real god.

Quote:

Islam's Mohammed too was just a human.

jesus was just a human. only your idiotic belief thinks otherwise.

Quote:

Hinduism incorporates an "all men are NOT created equal" belief-

yes. 100% true. because nobody is equal. every person is unique, and has different capabilities, that is what real life is like. the caste system in hinduism was no more than the natural tendencies of people leading to different roles in society.

then over time, with british/christian influence, it began to be seen as a discriminatory system, and eventually it actually became like that. today in india, there is terrible caste discrimination, but the original system did not intend that. the servants of ancient india were housed, clothed, fed well and lived happy lives under their kings, this stuff is well documented.

again, look at the evidence. all violence in the world is by christians/muslims. of course there is a tiny minority of all humans who may be violent. but the general trend is that mass murder and war and terrorism is only happening between christians vs muslims. WHY?

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Are atheists being more illogical than agnostics?

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