every action is selfish...

@cicerone imposter,

Who said the opposite ?
Applying energy not always result in "work" if that´s what you mean in there...

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Well, you wrote,

Quote:

I look at this issue as a side event out on a bigger picture on how the Universe works concerning "natural laws"...as we could say regarding Economy there ´s no such thing as a free lunch if we jump to Physics we can conclude that there are no eternal motion machines..."work" is the product of effort and applied energy, that must result in a gain or in a transfer back of energy...for every action a reaction...

You implied there is a relationship between "natural laws" and "say regarding Economy...."

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@wayne,

No line to be drawn...natural laws are everywhere...

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Not where it concerns human behavior.

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@cicerone imposter,

and there is...
It is true that the market behaviour abides by a "transfer of energy" or "effort" where it is expected a gain from such investment...if it is the case that such investment results in "work" or "chaos", disperse energy...the physics rules are still there and not broken...

...it is childish and self centred to place human kind aside natural law...

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Sure they are, but we meet many of them as a team, a man alone wouldn't last long.

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@wayne,

Agreed...it is called in Physics critical mass...

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@Fil Albuquerque,

I have never questioned humans being beyond natural laws. What ever humans do are within what can be deemed as "natural."

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@cicerone imposter,

So bring moral and charity in that realm if you will please...look at it from a market perspective...look at it as a general non linear investment in Society...

...from such a place to look at the problem charity it is a short term investment rather then a long term investment...if to play the original bloke you can also compare it with a rocket fuelled propulsion system against a ion drive...it achieves immediate well seen results but it fails in the long term...

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Not if you teach them how to fish or farming.

The US essentially destroyed Germany and Japan during WWII; the US supported them after the war, and they turned out to be the second and third largest economy in the world. That was not "short term" benefit.

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@cicerone imposter,

well that is not Charity in is common most used form...that´s the "ion drive" at work...that is why Scandinavian country's are where Latin country´s will never be...

...mind that I defined charity as giving the fish not the rod to fish, from the very beginning...(that may be the reason to our misunderstanding)

I believe my definition is correct and apply´s to the common form on how people act 90% of the time...

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@Fil Albuquerque,

So, it seems the problem arises with inter-group charity, it becomes impersonal, blind charity.
There is no responsibility in charity to someone you will never see, and no responsibility to the benefactor you will never know.

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@wayne,

...there is... a non linear non direct benefit...that´s why it requires some intelligence and capacity for abstraction...with long term investments the common IQ must be even higher in a developed Society if you want to achieve critical mass to develop the human potential around you to its peak efficiency...sustaining poverty has a high cost...poverty is a chaos generator...

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Sure, I understand what you're saying, but, just because we can abstract something doesn't mean we can make it so.
Over the course of human history many, many civilizations, and societies have simply died out. We rarely can explain exactly why.
There is so much we just don't know about those forces you mentioned earlier.

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@wayne,

There are all kinds of studies on abstract ideals, but trying to achieve such ideals is not possible whether it's about a country, state, county, or city.

It's because there are too many variables that must be considered for it to have any credence or accuracy of which many are not under anyone's control.

There is no way to apply physics to human behavior, because nothing about human behavior is constant or predictable.

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@cicerone imposter,

You must distinguish making predictions from Physics not being applied Cic...

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@cicerone imposter,

I agree, the real world is often harsh, brutal and unfair.
Human knowledge seems great, but in reality our ignorance is infinite.

I hate to sound harsh, but, no amount of charity will make a strong man weak and all the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty together again.

I see charity as a valuable means of buying time, in the hopes that our knowledge will improve.

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@wayne,

...this is not about Alchemy Waine...certainly not about miracles...its about optimizing what you have to the best of peoples ability´s even if that does n´t represent a major change...just think about peoples condition previous to the twentieth century...not that we changed allot...but nevertheless it was significant enough...

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Returning to the original statement, if one insists on motive being key, but there is no measure for motive, how can you assert that every action is selfish? Why not adopt a definition which can provide real observable trend? People have given examples which are contrary to the original statement, and that is good enough. Sophistry and naval gazing. Philosophy for the sake of generating mental entropy. Bohze moi!

A
R
T

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@wayne,

That's a good way to put it; to buy time, but we must also accept that it will be a very long-term "project" for humans to improve - with many backward and forward movements.

The only thing we can rely on is that there are some cultures/countries with a higher than average standard of living which give us confidence that it can happen.

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every action is selfish...

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