Sooo, why do you love your country? Or don't you?

One more thing...patriotism isn't limited to America.

There was---inside and outside the US. And for those outside the US, it wasn't patriotism.

I take your point, or one of them, re patriotism. In my lifetime, and much before that, that has gotten to be a scary word, equating in common understanding as nationalism. I don't remember it that way when I was in fifth grade, years ago, but I was a child then and not privy to discussions going on. I'm not all that sure that the assumption re nationalism is wrong, but I won't assail all those who think of themselves as patriots.

I'm not very interested, given my own impetus is to learn more about everywhere.

The unity directly after 9/11 was impressive. One of the better human traits is a tendency to band together in the face of danger and tragedy. This is something far nobler than patriotism, on that day people worked together, and grieved together and prayed together. Nationality didn't matter that day in New York which is one of the most international cities.

The sad part is that this Unity lasted all of two or three days. American "Patriots" quickly resumed their attacks on other Americans. Everyone from Homosexuals to Mexicans to Liberals were blamed for the attack.

I am saying that every racist or promoter of violence considers themselves a patriot. Of course this isn't true.

I am saying that everyone I hear, in public or in my personal sphere, who calls himself a "patriot" uses that term to attack other Americans. Sarah Palin attacks Americans for standing up for their rights. Glenn attacks Americans for standing up for their rights.

Here is a challenge for you Finn. Show me a prominent figure who calls him or herself a "patriot" who doesn't use it as a cudgel to attack Americans who they disagree with.

Love a country ? There are people in it that I hate . It is a line on the map drawn with hatred and racism .

That's pretty deep Ionus. Intriguing yet a bit cynical and bitter take on the question.

Finn dAbuzz wrote:
Was there not an explosion of love for the US, and a uniquely enhanced sense of unity after 9/11?

But, for those inside the U.S., there was an explosion of patriotism--unity and love of country. I have never seen so many flags flying in my life--outside every home, and on virtually every car--for months after 9/11. There was a shortage of flags, at least in my area, because so many were being sold. And the sentiment behind those flags was genuine.

I love my country because of it's basic values and ideals and because of the promise it has offered to every immigrant who has journeyed here--including my 4 grandparents who saw that promise fulfilled in the lives of their children and grandchildren. And that immigrant population continues to produce a country with incredible diversity, in all areas, and I see that diversity as a defining characteristic of my country, and the assimilation of differences continues to create a rich and changing mosaic. My country continues to be a work in progress, adapting and changing, and evolving, but always retaining a basic commitment to those essential values expressed by the Founding Fathers.

I don't find my patriotism corny, there is no country on earth I would rather have been born in or grown up in, and I mentally continue to thank my grandparents for the courage, and sacrifice, and struggle, that they went through so I could be an American.

I gave a lot for my country... and in return it gave me no compensation and now I live in poverty... though clearly that is an exaggeration as I am enriched by my friends at A2K...

Far too many of my real life friends are dead from suicide and strange illnesses...thats apart from those who died in service....we lose more lives in accidents than we do in war yet they are ignored in favour of the glamorous aspect of dying from the enemy . ANZAC Day is full of blowhards who did nothing .

The West, like my country, is ill from over eating whilst children in other countries only get enough food to keep them from mass famine, so they grow up brain damaged and with health problems.... the best from those countries we accept as immigrants to further rob those countries .

My country is damaged by the Libby Lobby and Partisan Politics .

Corruption is rampant amongst the Police and Politicians .

We fight for our countries to protect our wealthy and their wealth . I have seen the poor that we fight.... we have far more in common with them then we do the rich in our own country .

Trust me, we've got our share of professional veterans, too.

I'm not sure I get your point Thomas.

It was within America.

I was very heartened by the way most of the rest of the world responded after 9/11, but I'm hardly arguing it was a reflection of patriotism. How could it be?

Why do you think that being a patriot requires one to focus only on one's own country?

I think you are again allowing the cynicism of others to define the term for you.

I love to travel to other countries and I love to learn new things about other cultures, past and present. I don't, however, understand why this should, in any way, conflict with my love for America.

It's interesting how you you seek to Resnais facts to fit your point of view.

While the sense of unity did, alas, fade with time, it certainly lasted a lot longer than two or three days.

Depending your use of the word "nationality," you could be very right or very wrong. I think I understand your usage and you are very wrong.

Many people in America or at least it's regions of heavy immigration (ie NYC where I grew up) refer to someone's heritage when they speak of their
"nationality."

A New Yorker's "nationality" consists of the countries from which his or her forefathers emigrated. It's not..."American"

In this context, nationality was, indeed, meaningless in NYC on 9/11, because the overwhelmingly prevailing sense of identity was American, or New Yorker. It certainly wasn't World Citizen.

Your perspective seems to be that as individuals we should align our sense of identity to the greatest set of humanity: Earthlings. I would find it more intriguing and coherent if I thought you advocated the opposite: aligning ourselves to the base sub-set of humanity: Individual Self.

What happens when proof of non-Terran life arises? If you're alive, will you find "globalists" to be repugnant?

Human Nature has developed because it favors the survival of our species, and personal associations are a big part of Human Nature: Family, Tribe, Clan, Nation...

You can find this problematic, but I don't. Generally I concede that while self-organizing systems may not have any "intelligence" and so are not more intelligent than me, they are better suited to determine broad outcomes than me.

I bet you do too:

Should mankind try and manipulate ecologies?

Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me that when people talk about Patriotism, they are looking to exclude people, even American citizens, from being considered American. It is dividing us, not unifying us.

When Patriotism is invoked, it almost always refers to some subset of Americans. Patriotism is about monoculturalism Anyone, even those with American citizenship who grew up here, who falls outside of a "Patriots" narrow view of American is considered un-American.

A recent example is the recent Spanish spelling bee. It was organized by Americans. Most of the kids participating were Americans. The kids were attacked pretty viciously by "patriots". These third grade studious (and even nerdy) kids were compared with drug dealers for the simple fact they could spell in Spanish.

There are lots of examples were "patriotism" attacks and divides Americans.

I am asking, Finn, as a direct challenge. Give me one example where someone who called themselves a "patriot" was working to bring together all Americans instead of dividing American citizens into the classic "us" and "them" groups.

I have yet to see where patriotism is anything other than divisive.

It doesn't conflict with my love for America, which I announced easily and early.
I just don't think of my self as a rah rah U S patriot in the usual sense. I'm patriotic in my own way, not that I want to go on about that. So, I tried with what I thought was humor, for another word, earthiotic, and didn't like that either. (That doesn't then follow that I don't like the earth.)

Sounds like you're a patriot; not a jingoist.

Point taken. I'll accept patriot with a small p, if not used very often. Maybe a wee p.

I remember the root word as patria in latin, or so I think, but I don't know the ramifications of its usage back in the old roman days, if I ever knew them. (I don't think I thought that far, back when I was doing latin homework.)

Bear with me, there is a point to this -

I've subscribed to the New Yorker for countless years; I was raised on it, my parents subscribing. Reading it was a big part of my learning to read adult commentary or fiction, that and the Saturday Evening Post and Colliers magazines. I well remember not understanding the cartoons. Every once in a while, I still don't, but I've improved my percentages a great deal.

So, anyway, I haven't kept all those magazines. I've often peeled off the address thingy and left them in medical waiting rooms, so more generations can be confused by the cartoons. When my subscriptions are active, I can access old articles, but their system for search is amazingly lame for such an apparent savvy batch of writers and editors. So... once in a while I have torn out an article and saved it, before the great toss. Over time I've learned a lot. I get there is a bias to the magazine, mixed with absence of some other biases.

Meantime, I'm culling a lot of my saved stuff. So, in looking through a notebook, I tossed most of it and kept out a few things to reread, reading one this morning. Very interesting article, I'm glad I saved it. For anyone with subscription access, I recommend it, and for others who don't mind spending a couple of online dollars, here's the story -

PERSONAL HISTORY
IL DUCE'S PORTRAITS
Living with Mussolini
by Italo Calvino
January 6, 2003

This article speaks to patriotism of the type many are reactive to. Calvino is an incredibly observant writer. (I haven't always agreed with him on other of his writings, but you know me.) Almost every sentence about his childhood experience is interesting to me. I've read a lot about Mussolini, so I suppose I've unusual interest, but Calvino's breakdown of Mussolini's process is, I think, quite useful.


http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2003/01/06/030106fa_fact_calvino
I didn't think the abstract did justice to the article, but better than nada.

That's okay. If the WSJ even has a system for search, they surely haven't advertised it.

The reason I love the U.S.A. is because it allows us to make its history be our respective history, even though one's family may not have been here when a particular historical event took place. In other words, the U.S.A. in "inclusive," not "exclusive" like so many other countries appear to be.

So, even though it may take a few generations for family members to "feel" American, it is a process that oftentimes rewards the family with members that function adequately in our society, and can enjoy the American culture, baseball, barbecues, etc.

Also, I believe the English language does affect our brains' thinking style. Or, maybe it is that the nation is young, compared to some ossified countries on the other side of the pond? Regardless, I love the U.S.A., since I notice a percentage of the world wants to come here, and it may be human nature to love what others also want. So, I consider myself lucky for being born in the U.S.A., so I can appreciate all it offers.

I read WSJ from time to time, but have never tried searching, that I remember.
The Ny'er, even I could fix it, and anyone who knows me knows what a bad idea that would be. Or maybe not. I am interested in connections, or at the least, subject matter. Maybe I'm a tech guru chrysalis with wrinkles.