Sooo, why do you love your country? Or don't you?

Now there's a great post, farmer.(back on page one).

Only thing I'll quibble on is that the irish of us never do that, but I've only my own experience.

Not so very much really......lots of places are still tribally focused. I think it out there that some of us have managed, more or less, to develop loyalty to a biggish place.

But even in more or less functional biggish clumps, like say the UK, or the US, or Oz or Canada.....not so sure about Canada....there's lots of more or less tribal conflicts. Eg roman catholic vs Protestant was a biggie, look at black vs white, the culture wars in the US etc

not disagreeing, that much of this is tribal.

Psychologically and evolutionarily it is all the same.

The brain circuitry that is behind our urge to form "clumps" of people to be nice to (be they nations, religions or races) evolved long before we started singing militaristic national anthems or wearing clothes.

Human nature is to divide the world into "us" and "them". We feel we need to treat "us" with respect and are free (or even compelled) to distrust and fear "them". Whether the "us" is Christians or Whites or Americans really doesn't matter as long as there is a "them" around. After all, having a "them" to feel threatened by provides a sense of purpose and which is a requirement for our emotional well-being.

I think differently, but i have to go......try and tease out stuff later.

So what?

Others, if we are able, talk past all that.

Talking is the mode that has worked a lot of stuff out.

Of course we can get past all that, in fact that is kind of my point.

We don't have to continue with patriotism any more than we have to continue with racism or any other of the similar traits that are outgrowths of our tribal evolutionary past.

Many people choose not to indulge in such things. The fact that we are humans means it has to be an active choice as deviating from our base instincts always is.

Albert Einstein perhaps says it best.

I don't, because I just don't associate emotions with countries. To say "I love America", or "I love Germany", or "I hate Iran" seems as strange to me as "I love the Equator" or "I hate the South Pole". Why? Beats me. It just does.

But Thomas, do you love pizza?

I would describe my relationship to pizza as more carnal than loving. But I enjoy eating them, no strings attached. (Except if you count the cheese strains.)

Loving where you are from doesn't by definition encompass all that.

If I like the land I am used to, I am not somehow the fascist of the week.

Get off the horse. You are the one that pulled in the patriotism word. You and your ponies. I assume you are tagging.

Yeah you are right Osso. I went back and read your posts and I am out of line. I am sorry. It is difficult for me to separate the phrase "love of country" from nationalism and all the bad that that has done.

I still find the concept of love bemusing. If it just means that you like being in a country then it is no different than loving your house or a pair of shoes.

Some key things about my country are important to me-- freedom of speech and the struggle for civil rights. Some things annoy me-- the second amendment, our inability to provide decent health care to all and woman's suffrage (just kidding on one of these).

If you picked one hundred random people from the face of the Earth (and magically fixed any language barrier) I would probably have more in common with the Americans (since I am American). But I don't know if I would love the Americans any more then people of other nationalities. There are many Americans who frankly annoy the hell out of me.

I feel very uncomfortable in some parts of the US. I am very familiar and comfortable in the Northeast. If I "love" a geographic region, it is probably New England. I don't "love" the southern US so much. I would certainly feel more at home in Ontario than I would in Mississippi.

National borders don't determine which geographic places I "love".

Ah, thank you for the explanation, Max.

Peace. Don't be sorry, arguing is our way here. I remembered agreeing with you on stuff and was confused.

Apparently expressing love for a country makes some people uncomfortable from a linguistic standpoint, but not so when expressing love for food, music, a sports team or a color.

An almost causal scratching of the surface reveals that there is no real discomfort with the use of the word "love," but something else entirely.

Perhaps it’s a discomfort with nationalism. After all, we have so many World Citizens in this forum that it would be unusual if words like "patriotism" or phrases like "love of country" didn't hit a nerve or two.

Perhaps it’s a reflexive reaction based upon what some people feel is the proper, if not cool way to think, and the desire to be seen as above such base instincts as tribalism.

Tribalism has been very very good to the human race. Without it, it’s unlikely we would have made past our prehistoric origins. How long do you think the Eloi would have made it on the African plains?

Of course it has its dark side, but then so does a sense of self-awareness.

Why should someone not "love" their country?

First of all, it's perfectly natural and I was under the impression that the more we infuse and surround ourselves with the natural, the better.

Secondly, how does it hurt?

If you love your spouse, it doesn't mean you have to hate all other men and women. If you love pizza, it doesn't follow that you will, out of necessity, hate all other foods or try to make pizza the only food anyone can eat.

Lastly, it promotes a sense of unity among citizens of the same country, and I know that unity is almost as much a sure thing as natural.

There is quite a difference between understanding that like everything else, patriotism in the extreme can have dire results, and believing that it is fundamentally malignant.

Some folks seem to have more of a problem with loving their own country than with others loving theirs.

I suppose it can be found, but I have yet to run across a supporter of rights for illegal immigrants expressing repugnance for rather intense expressions of Mexican nationalism at rallies ostensibly convened to protest US immigration laws.

Robust Cuban nationalism is often welcomed by some (including Americans) as flipping the bird at their overpowering neighbor to the North.

If you feel that China has ravaged and oppressed Tibet, my bet is that you are A-OK with Tibetan nationalism (I know I am). Ironically enough you are probably A-OK with the notion of essentially a state religion in Tibet. Hey...it's Buddhism and that doesn't count. It's not like its Christianity or something.

I love my country the way I love my home town. Many people express love of their country, even when it is a ****-hole. At least I get to love a country that deserves it.

Guess what?

While love of my country has caused me to hope that its enemies fail or get their butts kicked, it's never led me to call for territorial expansion or world domination.

What could be wrong with loving the land in which you and your family and friends live?

This is a question I often asked myself about a friend of mine. Though I would substitute the word "love" for commitment.

My friend was a migrant (with her family) to Oz from the UK, in her very early years. We are exactly the same age, just a few months apart.

However, years after she & I had become friends, I discovered that she hadn't become an Australian citizen, which meant she was ineligible to vote in elections, etc, etc ...

I couldn't, for the life of me, understand why someone who'd lived just about all her life in the one country, & was very interested in politics & social justice & all the rest, would put herself in a situation like that. Imagine having no say. It would drive me nuts!

The only conclusion that I could come to about my friend was that she was sort of "hedging her bets" about which country it was in her best interests to be a citizen of.

I didn't say much to her at the time but I found that an appalling attitude!
To me, it was simple. Where you've live most of your life is where you commit yourself to ... things like voting for governments' policies (or not), things like being a full participant in the country & culture where you live.

Interestingly, many years down the track, she married a Vietnamese man. He wasted absolutely no time in becoming an Australian citizen, though the citizenship tests for migrants weren't exactly easy. On around his third attempt, after lots of intensive homework, he was successful. Bravo!

Now my friend is thinking she might try & achieve the same before his citizenship ceremony.

I accept the rest of your points, but this one is too ridiculous to not comment on. Patriotism, at least in the US, is one of the most divisive things around.

Muslim American are Americans and Patriots should love them as Americans. But, Listen to Muslim Americans are saying as they face angry crowds and accusations of crimes when they want to build a house of worship or even wear religious clothing in public. Accusing fellow Americans of treasonous goals isn't unity.

Hispanic Americans are also American. They are lambasted day in and day out for daring to express their opinions on issues like immigration. Accusing fellow Americans of being un-American for expressing their opinions isn't unity.

And then there are gay Americans and African Americans. The people calling themselves "Patriots" run around yelling at these other Americans along with they "liberal elite" and their Kenyan born president.

Saying that Patriotism has anything to do with unity is laughable.

The majority of Scandinavians I know who live in a foreign country do not become citizens of that country - at least not when living within Europe.
I don´t think it has anything to do with love or not, but where you feel your roots are.
Now at least Swedes can choose what citizenship their children should have and many choose to let their children have Swedish or two citizenships.
As long as your parents live you like to say "I am going home.... when going to Sweden for vacation. When the vacation is over you go home again to the country where you live.
Now I talk about Swedes, but that counts for other people too.
Even though you get a new citizenship there is so much that tells that you are a foreigner, your accent, often your name, your traditions, sometimes how you see things. Of course you get more and more like the people you live amongst, but there are moments you know you think differently or feel diffentenly. Like what soccerteam should win.....
I would never give up my citizenship.

Was there not an explosion of love for the US, and a uniquely enhanced sense of unity after 9/11?

You are making the same mistake made by so many others who sneer when the word "patriotism" is mentioned.

You are insisting that there is no difference between patriotism and jingoism.

A stalker might swear up and down that he loves his prey, but I doubt that you would concede his is a true love.

Simply because someone claims to love their country, doesn't mean there's is a true love.

And more importantly, not everyone who claims to love his or her country, or self-describes as a patriot is a jingoist or shares your definition of the term or concept.

Do you really believe that every racist or promoter if violence also considers themself a patriot? Now that's absurdity.