24
   

I Will Vote No More - Perhaps Forever

 
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 May, 2011 06:12 pm
@ossobuco,
On Eb not voting, like I said, I understand, Eb's reasoning. It's just not mine, though he and I often agree on a variety of issues.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 May, 2011 06:35 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
I don't expect you to get it, finn. I don't expect most who read here to get it, friend or foe.
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 May, 2011 06:35 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Perhaps this thread will end with a reluctant edgar agreeing that despite his deeply felt despair over the state of corporate dominated American politics, he accepts that he must vote when he can.

If, on the other hand, it doesn't and edgar stays true to his despairing vision, whenever he posts a thread or comment criticizing demon Republicans we can all despite our ideological divide, come together and respond:

"You don't vote edgar, you don't get to complain!"

Fortunately, you don't make the rules.
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 May, 2011 06:57 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

You're right, and this is my basic argument.

Unfortunately, edgar ( and to be fair, ,Legions of others) expect their vote to provide them with some sort of individually affirmative feedback.

It is an equally unfortunate characteristic of my generation, The Baby Boomers (of which I believe edgar is a member).



That's not true of me. I have tried to make a few points about the way our democracy is slipping away. My life is pretty much set for the time I have left, barring total catastrophe. I see the effect for others more so than myself.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 May, 2011 07:09 pm
@ossobuco,
Beatnik!
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 May, 2011 07:10 pm
@edgarblythe,
When no one seems to "get it," the concept is probably more obscure than profound.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 May, 2011 07:11 pm
@edgarblythe,
No, but I would hope that we can all come together on a rule that makes sense.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Mon 30 May, 2011 07:22 pm
@edgarblythe,
If democracy in America is "slipping away" it is because millions upon millions of citizens who get to vote are wards of the State and who have nothing to lose except their government checks.

I really don't blame them.

If I was supported by The State (i.e. Other Taxpayers) and yet didn't have to contribute a dime to the collective good, I might be all for getting more money out of the Other Taxpayers, especially if I bought into their demonization, by the politicians who curried my vote.

It would be nice for me and, more importantly, for them if they had enough of a sense of self-worth to want to pay their own way, but the Liberals have done their best to not only addict them to public welfare, but to make them feel they deserve it.

A thousand years from now, historians will have nothing but contempt for Great Society Liberals.



edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 May, 2011 07:30 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
You can't see beyond the culture war, finn.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Mon 30 May, 2011 07:36 pm
@edgarblythe,
Sez you edgar.

BTW what the heck is "the cultural war" which you believe limits my vision?



edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 May, 2011 08:22 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Don't give me that. You have been on line since or before Abuzz. You know about it.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 May, 2011 08:32 pm
@edgarblythe,
I have heard the term "cultural war" bandied about to a great extent, but what I have asked is what you mean by it.

Clearly you believe my vision has been limited by the so-called "cultural war," and I can as clearly respond that I don't agree.

We can go off saying "I'm right and he's wrong," but it might be more interesting if we had to support our conclusions. To do that I need to know what you mean by the term.

Or don't...
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 May, 2011 08:35 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
I don't want to pursue it any further. We are not going to see eye to eye anyway.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 May, 2011 08:35 pm
@edgarblythe,
OK, and by the way...Don't vote, it's pointless.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Mon 30 May, 2011 08:43 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
BTW what the heck is "the cultural war" which you believe limits my vision?


For one thing, Finn, it's that conservative/Repuglican blindness that has you making excuses for the war crimes of your country.
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Reply Mon 30 May, 2011 11:43 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:
Levitt is being an ass in this article. It is one thing to say, correctly, that voting is a pure public good, and that all its benefits go to society as a whole rather than to the individual voter. But it's quite another to say that the act of voting therefore violates some kind of ethical norm. Yet that's what Levitt suggests with his anecdote about economists being embarrassed when caught voting.


I have absolutely no idea how you get all of that out of the article but it seems to hinge on the misplaced notion that the only thing one can be embarrassed about is to violate some kind of "ethical norm". However, I have not ever seen any economist argue that voting violates any kind of ethical norm (they come closer to arguing the exact opposite), but rather that it may violate one's policy against wasting their time. They also almost invariably point out that in many democracies voting is itself treated as a social norm and that there is sometimes significant peer pressure in society to vote.

Another economist, whose name I don't recall right now summarized this point of view I took from these arguments succinctly when he said (paraphrased): you have better odds of improving society by buying a lottery ticket on society's behalf than by voting. I agree with that assessment and reject what I see as inordinate social pressure to vote (some go so far as to say it's an obligation).

Quote:
Here is a valid reason why voting should embarrass Levitt: Economists traditionally model individual behavior as motivated by rational egoism. The act of voting, where rational people act in the general interest, proves there are limits to this model. The proper response for economists, then, should be to find better models for individual behavior, models that include a conscience. Instead, Levitt tries to find everything else: Stupidity, ulterior motives, you name it. He seems to go out of his way to avoid admitting that humans want to promote each others' welfare. This denial of empirical reality, this refusal to update a refuted theory, should embarrass Levitt as an economist. His decision to vote is fine.


What a convoluted way to try to dictate the terms of Levitt's fictional economist's embarrassment. Laughing

I think you miss their point and don't give them credit for understanding the difference between what is rational for the individual versus what is rational for society. In many of these arguments I've read they go so far as to state that their selfishness with their time is contingent on others voting (e.g. the "if everyone thought that way" counter-argument they sometimes cite makes that clear).

The way I see it is that it may be more economical to try to convince other people to vote/not vote than to do so yourself (but again, nothing ethically wrong with voting if you have the time and inclination) and that if people don't want to vote it's not quite the abdication of civic duties that some make it out to be.
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 May, 2011 09:26 am
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:
At the risk of being branded a nut, I nevertheless plan to cease voting, as of last week. I feel I can no longer trust our government to do what is right for its people, regardless of the party in control. Therefore, until I see a mass movement toward gaining control of the problem, constructively and positively, which is the only remedy I can envision at this point, I will no longer get politically involved.
From a mathematical-statistical perspective one vote is extremely unlikely to make any difference in an outcome; so might I exhume your un-vote isn't based on the belief one vote matters in the pragmatic sense?
Quote:
prag·mat·ic (prg-mtk)
adj.
1. Dealing or concerned with facts or actual occurrences; practical
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/pragmatic
Any-who how about spoiling the ballot?
0 Replies
 
George
 
  3  
Reply Tue 31 May, 2011 09:46 am
@Robert Gentel,
Quote:
. . . In many of these arguments I've read they go so far as to state
that their selfishness with their time is contingent on others voting
(e.g. the "if everyone thought that way" counter-argument they
sometimes cite makes that clear). . . .


For me, that's the crux of it. One vote is meaningless, but the sum of
the votes is important. One voter staying away will not affect the
result, nor will two. But keep on this way and at some point - but what
point? - it makes a difference. Local political organizers understand this
very well and work hard to "get out the vote" for their candidate. They
use any means of persuasion they can. The righteousness of the cause,
standing up and being counted, civic duty. (Alas, free pigs are seldom
seen these days.) It sounds manipulative, but that's the way politics
works.

Rockhead
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 May, 2011 10:00 am
@George,
I would vote if I were to receive a free pig.

mebbe even for a chicken...
Irishk
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 May, 2011 10:05 am
@George,
Not only that, but it's drilled into us from an early age. I can remember feeling very anxious on election day...fretting over a nagging feeling that only ended once I made my way to the voting booth and pulled the lever. Once that was done, I could relax and go about my business with that little red, white and blue sticker that says, "I Voted!!!"

I still feel that way, but in another decade or two might be echoing Edgar's lament...I'm getting closer by the day.
0 Replies
 
 

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