24
   

I Will Vote No More - Perhaps Forever

 
 
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jul, 2011 07:38 am
@patiodog,
I was reading something the other day that supported Edgar's position, in a sense. It was saying that in a modern western democracy you can vote, but you have no choice (inferring the political spectrum is very narrow).
shewolfnm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jul, 2011 08:02 am
@panzade,
panzade wrote:


Just think, if 269 people had voted the other way....


how do you know they didnt ?
Dont install blind faith in our voting system.....its that blind faith that is one of the major issues with our so called government. People just assume that since its handled , supported or done by the government, that it is always honest, fair and forthright.. We all KNOW that isnt true, yet we dont question much and just smile and say " im american and im being patriotic. I trust my government "

Our country was founded on people who proved that wrong and wanted a land where people and government were equal. where we could demand the information about how things were running and that we would be the voice of the government and not the other way around.

so far.. that american ideal is gone.. We no longer have that ability, nor are we given the respect and honesty that our country was supposed to revolve around.

0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Jul, 2011 10:55 pm
@hingehead,
hingehead wrote:

I was reading something the other day that supported Edgar's position, in a sense. It was saying that in a modern western democracy you can vote, but you have no choice (inferring the political spectrum is very narrow).


With all due respect this is silly.

edgars has a difficulty with the system because he finds no choice that very closely aligns with his personal principles. While this is an entirely legitimate perspective for edgar, it hardly proves that the two choices are essentially identical.

edgar may chose not to vote in 2012 (and I for one hope he does not) but if someone put a gun to his head and insisted that he do so or die, I can guarantee that he would and it would not invole a process of eeny meeny miney moe. Even if the gunman insisted that his only choices were Republican or Democrat, he would find it quite easy to make a deliberate choice... for the Democrat.

He would do because even if he had no use for either candidate he knows that there is a better chance for the policies he favors coming form a Democratic Administration than a Republican one.

This is clear evidence that there is a difference that can inform choice. The difference may not be as stark as some would like, but those tend to be in the minoirty.

This is not to say that edgar is ultimately a slave to the Democrats. It's hard for me to imagine there being a Republican candidate he might favor over a Democrat, but if such a situation occurred, I'm sure edgar would not find it impossible to vote for the Republican. The hypothetical I am proposing is that he dislikes both candidates equally. In such a situation, if forced, he would, without much thought, vote Democrat, just as I, in the same boat, would vote Republican.

This is because we both believe that there is a significant enough difference between the policies that would be put in place by a Democrat vs a Republican. Neither of us may be happy with the policies of the party with which we are more closely aligned, but we will prefer them to those of the other.

It would be amazing, and ultimately impossible, for every voter to have the choice of a candidate who aligns perfectly with their principles.

There really are not that many possible world views. It's a pretty binary world and most choices can be broadly expressed in terms of 0 and 1.

If there really wasn't that much of a difference in the way either party might govern the nation, why are there so many people (in this forum) criticizing the policies of one or the other?

The answer may be that the reality of the situation is that political differences are based on tribalism. Both parties govern in exactly the same way, but because you have declared your allegiance to one of the two tribes, you see whatever the other tribes does as evil and whatever your tribe does as good...even if they are doing the same thing.

If this is the case we can't blame the system, we must blame ourselves.



0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Jul, 2011 07:11 am
Although our Democrats in office let us down as a matter of course these days, as finn points out, I would be forced to select them over the Republicans. I would hold my nose and vote them in. My objection to voting is the systemic corruption that abides, where I believe something similar to the Egyptian style revolt has become necessary. I am fully aware that few others support this view - today.
maxdancona
 
  3  
Reply Sun 31 Jul, 2011 07:17 am
@edgarblythe,
There is a problem with this Edgar. The United States is not Egypt. In the United States everyone has a free vote The American people choose the government by voting or by not voting.

Americans are getting the government we deserve.

If you want a better government, then you should be a better citizen. It seems to me that not voting is a step in the wrong direction.


edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Jul, 2011 07:27 am
@maxdancona,
What you say would be true, if the politicians asking us to vote for them did the right thing. Since they don't, we are a lot closer to the Egyptians in this than you realize.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Jul, 2011 09:25 am
@edgarblythe,
The politicians are doing the right thing. The are representing the people who voted for them.

The voters are nasty, vituperative, deeply divided, hateful and unwilling to compromise. In our representative government, our representatives are doing a stellar job representing us.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Sun 31 Jul, 2011 09:27 am
@edgarblythe,
Edgar, we are exactly the opposite of Egypt.

We have a divided government that very well represents the feelings of voters. Notice how well the debate in Congress reflects the debates we have here on Able2Know.

Egypt had a very unified government that didn't reflect the feelings or opinions of the voters.
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Sun 31 Jul, 2011 09:31 am
@maxdancona,
Manipulation of the public perceptions has taken away too much of the freedom you think we have, Plus the pressure from higher ups, who know you have to live in a system they pressure upon you. Nope. We are much more in the same boat with the Egyptians than you would think.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Jul, 2011 09:36 am
@edgarblythe,
I think you are way base Edgar.

The current debt crisis is because we have a deeply divided government that can't compromise and thus can't do anything significant. In Egypt there was (and is?) a single party government where it was very easy to get done whatever "needed" to get done. Our congress is having problems because they are at each others throats.

There was never any political stalemate in Egypt. There was never name calling or dissension.

There is no comparison.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Jul, 2011 09:45 am
I am not comparing the internal working of either government, but the effect they have on the public.
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Sun 31 Jul, 2011 10:16 am
@edgarblythe,
Effect? The US Congress represents the public. We put them there and they are representing us just fine.

If you were in Nancy Pelosi's shoes, what would you do differently?

edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Jul, 2011 10:30 am
@maxdancona,
I am suggesting our representatives become honest public servants, which none truly is. When lobbyists bring to them mountains of money, they choose to act in the public interest over accepting these bribes. When the FDA is allowed to act against persons who are honest and offering good services to the public, all in the interests of keeping cheap but effective products away from the public, the politicians should act to amend that power. But, instead, their action ties in with accepting lobbyists' money. When they throw away our money in unaccountable ways, or in gratuitous wars, while crying poverty, there is something wrong. When they allow all the money to flow uphill, while the money interests drive down employment and wages, they are not acting to serve us. When more of the public begins to put the blame where it belongs, there will be an upheaval. I just want it to be bloodless.
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Sun 31 Jul, 2011 11:41 am
@edgarblythe,
Quote:
I am suggesting our representatives become honest public servants,


If we want honest public servants, then we should elect honest public servants. Not voting doesn't seem like a right way forward on that front. The wars, the money interests and resistance to the FDA all have had widespread support from the American public.

The American public could easily vote in honest good true public servants if we wanted to.

Whose fault is it that negative attack ads are so effective? Whose fault is it that a good 10 second slogan persuades more Americans that a thoughtful 10 minute explanation?

Americans are getting exactly the government we deserve. In a representative democracy (emphasis on representative) it really couldn't be any other way.

If you want a better government, the first step is to be a better American. Not voting doesn't help your case one bit.
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Jul, 2011 12:27 pm
@maxdancona,
Voting for a bunch of unresponsive in it for the money politicians is helpful, how?
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Mon 1 Aug, 2011 07:06 pm
@edgarblythe,
I knew it!

Yet I will still hold out hope that your legitimate disappointment will cause you to stay at home on Election Day rather than just start threads like this one.
edgarblythe
 
  3  
Reply Mon 1 Aug, 2011 07:22 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Gots ta have a candidate before I can vote. So far, ain't a one in sight.
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Tue 2 Aug, 2011 07:34 pm
http://www.americanselect.org/
If these people succeed in putting up a viable candidate, I may or may not rethink my position.
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Aug, 2011 07:46 pm
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:

http://www.americanselect.org/
If these people succeed in putting up a viable candidate, I may or may not rethink my position.


I completely understand your position. I think it is absurd that every other profession in the US is required to be certified to do their job, except a politician. Yet the one person who can do the most harm to people are politicians. So the most harmful profession is the least regulated. This isn't why I choose not to vote though. I choose not to vote because pretty much every candidate is the same as their opponent. Until there is someone who doesn't adopt a democratic or republican position I might come around. Because that is what we need right now, the two party system has failed, it is time for something completely new.
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Aug, 2011 07:51 pm
@Krumple,
People know what you say is true, even if they don't admit it. Look how quickly so many jumped on Ross Perot's bandwagon, before they understood his positions.
0 Replies
 
 

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