Numbers

@Marrk,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_number

1 Reply

@fresco,

Not talking about grammatical number.

1 Reply

@Marrk,

Since when is "a part of speech" NOT "grammatical".

0 Replies

@Marrk,

Marrk, "four" is an adjective in that sentence because it desribes the "shorts".

1 Reply

@Quincy,

Okay. If it is an adjective, why don't we use a comma after it?

2 Replies

@Marrk,

Garments which are worn below the waist (pants, trousers, underpants, knickers, panties, jeans, etc) are considered to come in pairs, so we would say (and write) "Four pairs of long, white, cotton shorts were on the bed". "Four pairs" is a noun phrase, it seems to me.

You place commas after adjectives when they are elements of a list. "long, white" is a list with two elements. You would not, (I hope!) write "Red, flags mean danger"

0 Replies

@Marrk,

Marrk wrote:

Okay. If it is an adjective, why don't we use a comma after it?

Ok, if you don't like what I said last time, then "four" describes the "long, white, cotton shorts ". "Long, white, cotton shorts" is one thing, is it not? So "four" can describe it, right? We say "a rich man" and not "a rich, man".

1 Reply

@Quincy,

Apparently, I have not made myself clear. Further, some people have taken offense at my replies. So, let me try again.

EXAMPLE: "Four long, white, cotton shorts were on the bed."

In this example, the comma punctuation rule in play is that all but the last adjective in a series modifying the same noun need a comma after them. "Four," "long," "white," and "cotton" are all adjectives. They all modify the noun "shorts." The rule tells us that there should be a comma after all but "cotton." But we would never place a comma after "four" in the above example. I would like to know why.

2 Replies

@Marrk,

Marrk wrote:

In this example, the comma punctuation rule in play is that all but the last adjective in a series modifying the same noun need a comma after them. "Four," "long," "white," and "cotton" are all adjectives. They all modify the noun "shorts." The rule tells us that there should be a comma after all but "cotton." But we would never place a comma after "four" in the above example. I would like to know why.

If the adjectives are coordinate, you must use commas between them. Otherwise, you do not. To tell the difference remember that when you reorder coordinate adjectives or insert "and" between them, the series still makes sense. So you could write "four long and white and cotton shirts" or "four cotton, white, long shirts" and still make sense.

However "Cotton and four and white and long shirts" or "Long, cotton, white, four shirts" do not.

Do you see that the adjective of number "Four" is not coordinate with the others that follow it, and therefore must not be included in the series?

2 Replies

@contrex,

contrex wrote:

... the adjective of number "Four" is not coordinate with the others that follow it, and therefore must not be included in the series?

Also adjectives of number go before others, so "four" has to be before the comma-linked series of coordinate adjectives.

Can you see the difference in meaning between these two sentences?

The biggest British, steam-driven, steel, ocean-going ship, "SS Great Empire" docked in Boston today.

The biggest, British, steam-driven, steel, ocean-going ship, "SS Great Empire" docked in Boston today.

1 Reply

@contrex,

Quote:

Can you see the difference in meaning between these two sentences?

The biggest British, steam-driven, steel, ocean-going ship, "SS Great Empire" docked in Boston today.

The biggest, British, steam-driven, steel, ocean-going ship, "SS Great Empire" docked in Boston today.

Good example. I like it.

0 Replies

@Marrk,

Four

Quote:

It can't be an adjective.

It can be an adjective, and according to my dictionary, it often is.

0 Replies

@Marrk,

Marrk wrote:

Apparently, I have not made myself clear. Further, some people have taken offense at my replies. So, let me try again.

EXAMPLE: "Four long, white, cotton shorts were on the bed."

In this example, the comma punctuation rule in play is that all but the last adjective in a series modifying the same noun need a comma after them. "Four," "long," "white," and "cotton" are all adjectives. They all modify the noun "shorts." The rule tells us that there should be a comma after all but "cotton." But we would never place a comma after "four" in the above example. I would like to know why.

There is no such rule to my knowledge. It is only common that people do it. Sometimes you see people use no commas at all: "Four long white cotton shorts" is also acceptable.

Four does describe shorts, but it describes long, white, cotton shorts.
Does it make sense to you to write "Four, long, white, cotton shorts"? I'm just interested to know.

2 Replies

@Quincy,

Quincy wrote:

There is no such rule to my knowledge. It is only common that people do it. Sometimes you see people use no commas at all: "Four long white cotton shorts" is also acceptable.

Indeed there is no such "rule", and if there is no requirement to indicate that some adjectives in a sequence are coordinate and some are not, then the commas can be dispensed with, but sometimes their use is required to avoid ambiguity and if the sequence of adjectives is a long one, can perhaps aid readability.

Consider the following sentences:

Quincy's first well-written clear intelligent thoughtful essay.
Quincy's first well-written, clear, intelligent, thoughtful essay.
Quincy's first, well-written, clear, intelligent, thoughtful essay.

Which one would you prefer to see in a written message from your teacher?

2 Replies

@Quincy,

Quincy wrote:

Does it make sense to you to write "Four, long, white, cotton shorts"?

He's been asked this question, or variants of it, quite a few times, and he does not appear to be inclined to reply, but I live in hope...

I don't think it does, in fact his original question seems to indicate as much. He seems to want to know the reason why it makes no sense.

0 Replies

@contrex,

contrex wrote:

Consider the following sentences:

Quincy's first well-written clear intelligent thoughtful essay.
Quincy's first well-written, clear, intelligent, thoughtful essay.
Quincy's first, well-written, clear, intelligent, thoughtful essay.

Which one would you prefer to see in a written message from your teacher?

It does not appear to me there are any differences in meaning; one would arrange the commas as one see best. I would probably put an 'and' in too.

1 Reply

@Quincy,

Quincy wrote:

It does not appear to me there are any differences in meaning

I disagree. In this first sentence, the fact that there is no comma after "first" indicates that it is not coordinate with the other adjectives, that it is to to be considered separately. The sentence could be taken to imply that the essay is the first (of one or more) from Quincy that the writer has seen which is well-written, clear, intelligent and thoughtful. It implies that previous essays were not.

Quincy's first well-written, clear, intelligent, thoughtful essay.

On the other hand, in this second sentence, the comma after "first" indicates that it is coordinate with the other adjectives, that they are to be considered as a group, so the sentence says that the essay is the first one of Quincy's that the writer has seen, and furthermore that it is well-written, clear, intelligent, and thoughtful.

Quincy's first, well-written, clear, intelligent, thoughtful essay.

The "and" is optional.

0 Replies

@contrex,

Ladies and Germans, I think we have a bingo!

Thank you, contrex. The coordinate adjective vs. non-coordinate adjective rule answers my question.

See also: http://pageofachilles.blogspot.com/2009/01/coordinate-adjectives.html

Thanks to everyone else for their helpful participation in this thread.

By the way, I am a college English instructor. As it happens, I teach a grammar review class. So, yeah, I understand the difference between one example and another.

0 Replies

@contrex,

contrex wrote:

Quincy wrote:
There is no such rule to my knowledge. It is only common that people do it. Sometimes you see people use no commas at all: "Four long white cotton shorts" is also acceptable.

Indeed there is no such "rule", and if there is no requirement to indicate that some adjectives in a sequence are coordinate and some are not, then the commas can be dispensed with, but sometimes their use is required to avoid ambiguity and if the sequence of adjectives is a long one, can perhaps aid readability.

Consider the following sentences:

Quincy's first well-written clear intelligent thoughtful essay.
Quincy's first well-written, clear, intelligent, thoughtful essay.
Quincy's first, well-written, clear, intelligent, thoughtful essay.

Which one would you prefer to see in a written message from your teacher?

Yes you are correct. I read over the options too fast, lol

0 Replies

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