12
   

is the pledge unconstitutional?

 
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 May, 2011 01:25 pm
@hamilton,
Let's get one thing straight--i don't call anyone "stupid." If i question what someone posts, it frequently, but not always, is a matter of coherence. In other cases it's a matter of ignorance or willful misrepresentation. In your first thread here, i asked you if you had thought out your idea before posting it here, and you responded that you hadn't, and didn't know anyone who did that. I suggested that your acquaintance must be a thoughtless bunch, to which you responded by claiming i had said your friends are stupid. I hadn't, and acquaintance and friends are not synonymous. I don't consider myself either responsible for your failures to understand what i have written, nor a decision on your part to misrepresent what i've written. As i've asked you and so many people here, do you really expect that no one will ever question your ideas?

It it's so damned tedious for you, the remedy is simple and obvious. Ignore me. I'll not suffer for it, i assure you.
0 Replies
 
hamilton
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 May, 2011 01:36 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

As usual, your response is not relevant to the point i was making to David.

Idiot.

...
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 May, 2011 01:38 pm
@hamilton,
So?

I told him that as long as he responds to my posts, that's the response he'll get. Why does this get your little lace panties in a twist?
hamilton
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 May, 2011 01:47 pm
@Setanta,
you just said you dont call anyone stupid. this is a synonym of stupid...
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 May, 2011 02:33 pm
@hamilton,
I don't call anyone stupid. I despise the very word. It reminds me of some pimple-faced clown on the schoolyard saying: "That's just stoo-pid." I almost never use the word, and can't recall the last time i did. It's typical of your misrepresentations that you obsess over the word, and want to pick a fight about it.

What's really hilarious is the surprise you expressed earlier as though you thought you've never been a jerk. You're being a jerk right now.
hamilton
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 May, 2011 02:48 pm
@Setanta,
how am i a jerk? is it my tenacity on a point that you view as drivel or such? i dont think that constitutes me being a jerk.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 May, 2011 02:55 pm
@hamilton,
What makes you a jerk is your obsession with "stupid," and your obsession with how i talk to other people. It's none of your goddamned business--and it now verges on harrassment. I've make it clear from the outset in responding to the idiot Fido that so long as he doesn't respond to me, doesn't quote me, i'll ignore him; at that as long as he does quote me, i'll tell him he's an idiot.

Idiot can mean stupid, but it can also mean follish, which is how i use in referring to Fido. Being sick and tired of your bullshit now on this subject, i'd say, don't waste your time responding, because i'm going to ignore you now.
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 May, 2011 03:06 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

This is a particular case. Not long after Fido arrived, he was telling me what he claimed i didn't understand, and was using foul language, and in a particular case in which his ignorance of the subject was breathtaking. I told him i'd rather not see him respond to my posts at all. For a very long time, he held to that. Now he has started posting his drivel again in response to what i write, and quoting me in the process. I've told him that for as long as he does that, this is the kind of response he can expect.

Why do you whine about how i respond to other people? It's tedious, you know, especially given the nasty way your responded to me in your first thread here because i questioned your coherence.
My opinion has not much changed... You are knowledgeable and understand very little... I think you ought to take a breath, and hold it...
hamilton
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 May, 2011 03:18 pm
@Setanta,
wow, your sensitive. i think that this is just a big misunderstanding. cant we kiss and make up. just calm down. no need to be so self conscious.
hamilton
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 May, 2011 03:19 pm
@Setanta,
jeez.
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 May, 2011 03:22 pm
@hamilton,
Your "tenacity" is coming across as obsessive/compulsive to at least some of us.

Bye
hamilton
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 May, 2011 03:37 pm
@roger,
sorry, it just pisses me off when people call other people [insert mean word here]. its something i just cant get out of my head, sometimes.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sun 29 May, 2011 04:58 pm
@Setanta,
Sounds like Setanta is 12 years old instead of one foot in the grave.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 May, 2011 06:41 pm
@hamilton,
I'm not self-conscious, nor am i angry. I"m just fed up with your bullshit.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 May, 2011 06:42 pm
@Fido,
Given the utter bullshit you so consistently post, the flights of not very bright fantasy you allege to be "inspired," this was really hilarious.

Idiot.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 May, 2011 12:48 am
@Setanta,
OmSigDAVID wrote:
I said that I don't see what is legally in violation qua moving military assets from one place to another in America. I questioned any interference from Article I Section 8. The Secretary of War coud do that in furtherance of the power of the President. He was lawfully in possession of federal military assets. He had and has Constitutional authority to move them from one federal installation to another one. I fail to see any cause for objection.
Setanta wrote:
The one example you provided was based on a congressional act.
Article One, Section Eight very clearly grants to Congress the right
to provide for arming the militia--to me, that is an unequivocal statement of where the power resides.
It is very clear that Congress has the power to arm the selected militia
(the Article I Section 8 militia). This is not necessarily to the EXCLUSION of anyone else.
The Constitution does not say THAT.
Accordingly, if u or I chose to donate a gun to the troops,
that woud not be a violation of the Constitution.
Incidentally: I get the impression (correct me if I 'm rong)
that Floyd sent the guns to Regular US Army arsenals, not to militia,
but the same principles apply to donations to the Regular Army.
Obviously, Congress has the power to arm it,
and anyone can freely donate to it.

ANYWAY, all Armed Forces ordnance is lawfully in the possession of the President;
i.e., he is in possession ("constructive possession") of every M-1 Abrams Battle Tank,
of every B-52 Bomber and in possession of all Nimitz Class Aircraft Carriers,
in addition to all the 1,000s (millions??) of M-14 and M-16 Rifles
in America and in Iraq, or anywhere.

ACCORDINGLY, those guns never left the possession of President Buchanan
as of when Floyd resigned from office,
and Buchanan was perfectly free to order that the guns be moven
anywhere in America of his choosing; there was no one to stop him.
As I see the situation: those were the facts,
not mere technicalities. Do u disagree ?





Setanta wrote:
A subsequent congressional investigation found that Secretary Floyd had acted illegally. Applying the historiographic principle of cui bono, i'm willing to concede that the Congress as it existed subsequent to secession and before 1865 might have been conducting a biased investigation. However, that Congress may have reached that conclusion on a questionable basis does not constitute evidence that the conclusion is false.
The conclusion has no validity, in that he was never tried for any crime.
It was only the opinion of Congress, the sense of Congress.

Did Floyd have the opportunity to defend himself??
I wonder whether he was represented by counsel during the Congressional Investigation.
In any case, presumably, he was not afforded the protections
to which a defendant in criminal litigation is entitled in a court of law.
Note that when Floyd moved the muskets and rifles James Buchanan was President, not Lincoln.
I understand the the guns had been moven in 1859.
Lincoln was elected in November of 1860
and took office in March of 1861.
I simply don 't see ANYTHING unlawful in Floyd 's conduct.

Do u believe that I ' ve failed to consider something significant?
( I am aware that u have conceded the possibility that the investigation may have been biased.)





David
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 May, 2011 04:05 am
@OmSigDAVID,
You are wrong about Mr. Floyd in two respects, one literal and the other practical. The first is that he sent the weapons to state arsenals. The second is that these weapons were seized from those arsenals. All of them nominally remained the property of the United States, but that meant nothing in the schemes of the fire-brands bent on war.

Yes, i disagree. Mr. Floyd not only did not seek congressional approval, he did not inform Mr. Buchanan of his actions. In shipping those guns to the arsenals of states which he had every expectation would secede, and then seize the contents of the arsenal, he willfully put them beyond the control of Mr. Buchanan. I also deny the rather simple-minded view that the weapons of the United States armed forces are the possessions of whomever holds the ofice of President at any given time. Do you allege that the President may alienate them? He may give them away, sell them, destroy them--all without reference to the congress which authorize their purchase or manufacture? I'm not buying that.

The guns were moved in 1860. Who was the President or the President-elect at the time the guns were moved has no bearing on the legality of the issue. Floyd did appear in March 1861, to answer a grand jury indictment in Washington, which indictment was thrown out. Anyone familiar with the sentiments in Maryland and Washington City will not be surprised at that. The conclusion of the Floyd inquiry was that Congress asked the Supreme Court to review their findings, and that body came to the conclusion that Floyd had acted illegally, and even that he had engaged in corruption.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 May, 2011 04:08 am
Oh, by the way, as for your thesis that the weapons and munitions were 'possessions" of Mr. Buchanan, when he learned of the shipments after Floyd's resignation, he cancelled the orders for heavy ordnance (i.e., cannons) which had not yet been delivered, and and cancelled all other shipment orders which were still in process. Do you assert that by taking actions with Mr. Buchanan's "property" (as you allege it) without Mr. Buchanan's prior knowledge and consent, Mr. Floyd was nonetheless acting legally?
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 May, 2011 12:23 pm
@Setanta,
.
Setanta wrote:
You are wrong about Mr. Floyd in two respects, one literal and the other practical.
The first is that he sent the weapons to state arsenals.
I was endeavoring to express the concept
that he sent them to Regular US Army arsenals in the States,
not that he sent them to State militia.



Setanta wrote:
The second is that these weapons were seized from those arsenals.
All of them nominally remained the property of the United States,
but that meant nothing in the schemes of the fire-brands bent on war.

Yes, i disagree. Mr. Floyd not only did not seek congressional approval,
he did not inform Mr. Buchanan of his actions.
It seems to me, that in order for that to be unlawful,
it woud have to be in violation of some statute.
Before judging whether his actions violated such a statute,
we 'd have to read the statute.
I have not.
Accordingly, I must reserve decision.




Setanta wrote:
In shipping those guns to the arsenals of states which he had every expectation would secede,
and then seize the contents of the arsenal, he willfully put them beyond the control of Mr. Buchanan.
As I pointed out, Buchanan was quite free
to order his troops to send them back, or send them anywhere else.
Thay remained under his command. Thay were not going to rise in mutiny against Buchanan.





Setanta wrote:
I also deny the rather simple-minded view that the weapons of the United States armed forces
are the possessions of whomever holds the ofice of President at any given time.
My point is that when thay r in the hands of US Army troops,
thay r (vicariously) in the hands of the President.
As we speak, all planes of the Air Force and all ships of the Navy
r in the hands of the President (as well as all small arms).
If a soldier 's gun is captured by the enemy THEN it leaves the President's possession.

Setanta, I hope that I have not given the impression that
the US Army weapons that r (vicariously) in the President's possession
r his PROPERTY; that certainly is NOT the case.
As I see it, its the same as his possession of the White House,
which is NOT his property. He can 't sell it, nor wager it in a poker game.





Setanta wrote:
Do you allege that the President may alienate them? He may give them away, sell them,
destroy them--all without reference to the congress which authorize their purchase or manufacture? I'm not buying that.
I cannot speak with full certainly on that point, but I 'm inclined to suspect that he can,
my reasoning being that the President is BOTH Comander-in-Chief
and also in command of American foreign policy.
It is possible that Congress has enacted a statute requiring
the President's co-ordination with Congress before doing so; maybe. I dunno.
If such a statute exists, I have no opinion of whether it is Constitutional or not.








Setanta wrote:
The guns were moved in 1860. Who was the President or the President-elect at the time the guns were moved
has no bearing on the legality of the issue. Floyd did appear in March 1861, to answer a grand jury indictment in Washington,
which indictment was thrown out.
ANY prosecutor can get an indictment; there 's no trick to that.



Setanta wrote:
Anyone familiar with the sentiments in Maryland and Washington City will not be surprised at that.
The conclusion of the Floyd inquiry was that Congress asked the Supreme Court to review their findings,
and that body came to the conclusion that Floyd had acted illegally, and even that he had engaged in corruption.
That news surprizes me A LOT,
since the USSC has ruled that it has no jurisdiction to issue advisory opinions.





David
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 May, 2011 12:41 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
Oh, by the way, as for your thesis that the weapons and munitions were 'possessions" of Mr. Buchanan, when he learned of the shipments after Floyd's resignation, he cancelled the orders for heavy ordnance (i.e., cannons) which had not yet been delivered, and and cancelled all other shipment orders which were still in process. Do you assert that by taking actions with Mr. Buchanan's "property" (as you allege it)
Those assets in his possession, his possessions, were certainly NOT his property, and I did not allege such a foolish thing.
It is the same as his possession of the White House.



Setanta wrote:
without Mr. Buchanan's prior knowledge and consent, Mr. Floyd was nonetheless acting legally?
Yes. Few of the actions of a Secretary of War or a Secretary of Defense r brought to the attention of the President.
That does not determine their legality.
He will tell the President of the most important ones,
but again, that has no bearing upon the legality of the actions themselves.

As to the President's proprietary interest in those assets,
thay were his property only to the extent
that thay were the property of EVERY American citizen,
of whom he is one.

If your wallet falls from your grasp
and I pick it up for u,
I possess it, but it is certainly NOT my property.





David
0 Replies
 
 

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