is the pledge unconstitutional?

@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

joefromchicago wrote:
The "god" referred to in the pledge of allegiance is not the Christian god, it is the god of the supreme court. That god is a fundamentally secular individual.

Then how do Christians not violate the Second Commandment by reciting this reference to the Supreme Court's god?

EDIT: And how come the activists who campaigned for the inclusion of god all thought they were pushing a Christian agenda? Didn't they know they were lobbying for the inclusion of a fundamentally secular entity?

In my opinion, your concerns can be addressed by one's having a "tolerance for ambiguity." That is what I was taught in Management 101 that the "best" executives have. Sort of like not firing the clerk that comes in late every day, yet still does 40% of the work in a four clerk clerical unit. Without a "tolerance for ambiguity" the "late" clerk gets fired, and the unit loses the "star" worker. Not everything can fit in neatly, in a country that is as heterogeous as the U.S.A. I believe that realization is the strength that the U.S.A. has, and Europe might be trying just now to learn (or not learn in the case of the French ban on Muslim women's head coverings)?

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@Setanta,

Doesn't this,

"The words "under god" were not in the original text. They were added by Congress at the height of the McCarthyite red scare."

make this,

"In a 2-1 decision, the appellate court ruled that the words were of a "ceremonial and patriotic nature" and did not constitute an establishment of religion."

a rather fatuous notion?

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@JTT,

Of course it does. Anyone saying the Pledge must do so while winking.
It is an odd thing that we make children and new citizens do. Think about it. Why not drop the flag part out completely?

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America (Really? to the flag and not the country?)
wait
...and to the country for which it stands....here comes the winking part
one nation, (wink) under God (wink wink) with liberty and justice for all (wink until you blink)

Why not keep it short and simple.

I pledge allegiance to the United States of America, a nation with liberty and justice for all.

Joe(A bit of winking still to be done on the 'liberty and justice' part .yes, well, on with it... )Nation

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@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

Then how do Christians not violate the Second Commandment by reciting this reference to the Supreme Court's god?

I don't know. I'll be sure to ask the next Christian I see.

Thomas wrote:

EDIT: And how come the activists who campaigned for the inclusion of god all thought they were pushing a Christian agenda? Didn't they know they were lobbying for the inclusion of a fundamentally secular entity?

The right-wing Christian activists who lobbied for the inclusion of "god" in the pledge of allegiance thought that they were putting their god into the pledge. But then the supreme court told them that, no, they had put the court's god in there. Rats! Snookered again!

The activists, though, should be used to that. They are constantly getting bamboozled by politicians and judges, and yet they keep trusting the same politicians and judges to advance the right-wing Christian agenda. They thought Reagan would end abortion, then they thought George H.W. Bush would end abortion, and then they really thought that George W. Bush would end abortion, and I'm sure they think the next Republican president will end abortion. Each time they try to kick the football, thinking that this time Lucy won't pull it away at the last minute, and every time they are deceived. Which is why the official motto of the Christian right wing is: "AAUGH! WUMP!"

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@joefromchicago,

Thanks! It all seems so clear to me now! Smile

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"one nation, under God" is better than "one nation, under Bush". The only other alternative that would suffice in our pledge would be "one nation, under Dick" but the feminists would revolt and put another Republican back in office.

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and "one nation, indivisable", which is all it was ORIGINALLY, is better than any of your alternatives.

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@MontereyJack,

i am inclined to agree...

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@hamilton,

hamilton wrote:

i am inclined to agree...

Me too.

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@MontereyJack,

MontereyJack wrote:

and "one nation, indivisable", which is all it was ORIGINALLY, is better than any of your alternatives.

. . . and not saying it at all is best. This exercise in socialistic state worship is unbecoming of a free people.

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Hear hear . . .

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@Setanta,

This pledge-of-allegiance business is very weird to me, having grown up in West Germany. In school, our civics classes showed us videos of East German "pioneers" (their scouts) reciting their pledge of allegiance. Our teachers made clear to us that West Germany was a free country, so we didn't have that kind of ritual. Coming to America and watching Americans do it on a regular basis creeps me out.

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@Thomas,

It should creep you out. It became an obsessional practice here thanks to Tailgunner Joe McCarthy and that little **** Nixon on HUAC (Truman is alleged to have christened Nixon "that little ****"--give 'em hell, Harry).

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@Setanta,

This quibble over the "under god" part reminds me of what ehBeth so aptly calls the red-pyjama, blue-pyjama maneuver. Parents execute this maneuver on children who don't want to go to bed, and who won't comply if asked directly. But if you ask children what pyjama they want to wear, that's all they pay attention to, and they forget about questioning the premise of going to bed now.

I wonder if the "under god" discussion might serve a similar purpose. The real agenda behind the quibble is that people keep worshipping the system, and question only the style in which they worship it.

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@Thomas,

I wouldn't credit the Republican congress in the 1950s with being the clever--i'd say it is an effect rather than the intent.

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@hamilton,

hamilton wrote:

"one nation, under GOD"...
wasnt the first big idea to have a seperation of church and state???

Don't worry about that... The line about liberty and justice for all is a dead give away that the whole oath is jest...

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@Setanta,

Quote:

It became an obsessional practice here thanks to Tailgunner Joe McCarthy and that little **** Nixon on HUAC

There were even littler shits. OmSig swears he loves Joe.

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@JTT,

JTT wrote:

Quote:
It became an obsessional practice here thanks to Tailgunner Joe McCarthy and that little **** Nixon on HUAC

There were even littler shits. OmSig swears he loves Joe.

That guy needs a butt plug for his brain, if what you say is true..

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@Fido,

Quote:

That guy needs a butt plug for his brain, if what you say is true.

Just ask him, Fido.

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@JTT,

JTT wrote:

Quote:
That guy needs a butt plug for his brain, if what you say is true.

Just ask him, Fido.

I am old, and I like to run... Do you think that sort of question is worth even one of my breaths???

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is the pledge unconstitutional?

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