5
   

Separation of State and Church?

 
 
raprap
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2011 10:38 am
@Renaldo Dubois,
So now Jefferson was an ignoramus?

Rap
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2011 10:39 am
@Renaldo Dubois,
Renaldo Dubois wrote:
Oh my. I don't know what we are going to do now. We're all wrong according to you. Oh my. A nation founded on a document written by a backwards American.

What are we going to do? We are going to ignore the Declaration of Independence when talking about First-Amendment cases. Fortunately, that's easy to do, because the Declaration of Independence is not law in America---as I said repeatedly.
Renaldo Dubois
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2011 10:42 am
@Thomas,
Doesn't matter that it's not law. The belief of Thomas Jefferson is the point. Millions of Americans believe those words by Thomas Jefferson. Whether they are law or not is not the point. I never said they were law. Americans are free to believe a creator endows us with our rights, not our government.
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2011 10:44 am
@Renaldo Dubois,
Americans have the right to hold mistaken beliefs. The fact that they hold them doesn't make them right.
Renaldo Dubois
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2011 10:58 am
@Thomas,
Exactly. Thank God Thomas Jefferson wrote religious freedom into our Constitution. Agreed. Government doesn't give us that right so government cannot take it away.
raprap
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2011 11:02 am
@Renaldo Dubois,
Actually the principal author of the constitution was Madison, but I agree with the sentiment.

Rap
Renaldo Dubois
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2011 11:16 am
@raprap,
Interesting that all those founding fathers were became President used a bible to take their oath of office. Washington started that. I think Washington, Adams and Jefferson even kissed the bible. There is also a bible in the cornerstone of the Washington Monument.
Renaldo Dubois
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2011 11:18 am
A few more fun facts.
http://www.religiousliberty.com/article-washington-dc-monuments.htm
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2011 11:35 am
Quote:
Steve Doocy Uses Student In More ACLU Bashing
(News Hounds Blog, May 20, 2011)

In their initial report, Steve Doocy and Peter Johnson agreed that the ACLU has no case. Doocy and Johnson stressed how the graduation was a tradition and that the folks in Ocean Grove all oppose the ACLU's position. And to support Fox's position, Steve Doocy, this morning, interviewed an Ocean Grove student and his mother who (surprise, surprise) have no problems with the religious iconography in the hall. Obviously, Fox "News" has no problem using students to push a right wing issue; i.e. the ACLU is a great, big meanie. Ain't no war like a culture war, and Fox "News" bringing it.

In opening, Doocy stressed the longstanding tradition of the graduation being held in the "Great Hall" which is owned by a Methodist association. Good Christian Doocy told a little fib when he claimed that the ACLU "wants graduation moved." Fact Check - they have requested that the symbols be covered. If that happens, graduation can take place. The religious association is refusing to comply with the request. The chyron graphic was "the Trouble With Schools" which is bizarre because this has nothing to do with the school. Doocy's nose got longer when he asked the student how he felt about the ACLU, in reference to the graduation, said "you can't have it here." Darren Steverson said that he and other students would be disappointed. Steve got very emotional when he described the cross and bible verses and shouted "this is not a church." While the chyron reinforced the "tradition" message: "Commencement Controversy, ACLU Could End 70 Year Tradition," Doocy and Steverson's mother agreed that this is a "mixed use building." Doocy's nose got even longer: "Right now the ACLU says that you can't to it." The chyron pushed the agitprop: "Protesting a Place of Worship? The ACLU Wants School To Cover Cross." Doocy said that "to their credit," the school isn't backing down. Doocy asked Darren about "the fact that it was one person" who dared to criticize the venue. (Popular Fox & Friends meme for these types of cases - one, or a few, meanies are spoiling everybody's good time.) Darren fed the meme with his comment about not understanding why this person would want to "mess up a tradition." (Does Fox coach it's guests before hand?) As he spoke, the camera zoomed in on the sign saying "holiness to the Lord" and "so be ye holy."

Doocy repeated the meme: "Doesn't it bother you that one person can screw it up for everybody? (Hopefully, this person's name won't be made public because they'll be getting death threats from the nice, "Christians" who watch Fox & Friends!) Doocy agreed when Mrs. Steverson spoke highly of the hall especially when the lights behind the great, big flag are lit. (Hmmm - an appeal to patriotism - another coached talking point?) Doocy ended by emphasizing (he slapped his knees while speaking) Fox News' position: "It's a mixed use building." He rolled his eyes as he said "it's an auditorium, it's not a church."

Comment: Hopefully, in the spirit of "fair & balanced" (Yeah, I know, it's an "opinion show") somebody from the ACLU will be interviewed; but I'm not holding my breath. But don't ya love how Fox & Friends takes local issues (read sex ed curriculum in Helena Mt.) and makes them national? That the graduation is "traditional," is not relevant. What is relevant is that this is a building owned by a religious association and which is adorned with religious images. The ACLU bases its case on the fact that this "use" of the building is a public school graduation and having the ceremony in a building that promotes Christianity would suggest that it's a First Amendment violation in that it links government with the promotion of Christianity. This is up to the court to decide. But Fox & Friends, which has never seen a Christian cross that it won't defend, has already issued a verdict in the court of right wing public opinion so I guess it's settled!
0 Replies
 
raprap
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2011 11:38 am
@Renaldo Dubois,
Most of the founding fathers were Mason's. Washington's Bible is in the possession of St. John's Lodge No. 1, Ancient York Masons.

Jefferson also edited the new testament---his bible is known as Jefferson's bible http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/. Although raised as an Anglican, he was influenced by English Deists particularly Joseph Priestly, and later allied his beliefs with early Unitarians and felt that most Americans would eventually follow the freethinking philosophies of Thoreau and Emerson.

http://www.adherents.com/people/pj/Thomas_Jefferson.html

Rap
Renaldo Dubois
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2011 11:40 am
@raprap,
You're preaching to the choir. Tell me something I don't know.
raprap
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2011 11:45 am
@Renaldo Dubois,
Then you agree with the sentiment that the US is a Masonic nation?

Rap
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2011 11:45 am
@raprap,
raprap wrote:
Jefferson also edited the new testament---his bible is known as Jefferson's bible http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/.

One might add that Jefferson edited the Bible in a very particular way: He deleted all contradictions. He also deleted all the duplicates of every story except one, so that each story is told exactly once. Then, he deleted all references to the supernatural in general and to god in particular. Finally, he put the rest in chronological order. This isn't what you expect from an editor who thinks god is terribly important for the gospel.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2011 11:56 am
@raprap,
Not only that, but the Masons in league with the Federal Reserve system are out to destroy our great nation.
raprap
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2011 11:58 am
@Thomas,
Agreed, his bible is more of a basis of morality than a testament of dogma. It is more Unitarian than Christian.

Rap
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2011 11:58 am
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:
Americans have the right to hold mistaken beliefs.


Including the laughable belief that Jefferson had anything to do with writing the constitution.
0 Replies
 
raprap
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2011 11:59 am
@Setanta,
Illuminati be damned.

Rap
0 Replies
 
raprap
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2011 12:15 pm
@Renaldo Dubois,
Unitarians aren't Christian.

Rap
0 Replies
 
Renaldo Dubois
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2011 12:24 pm
@raprap,
No. Many Christians are Masons. Christianity is a religion of freedom.
Renaldo Dubois
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2011 12:26 pm
@Thomas,
That doesn't equate to not believing in a creator.
 

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