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Does Plato's Republic Propose A Rigid Class System?

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 May, 2011 05:53 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
I agree; it's over-rated.


What age were you ci. when you read it?
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 May, 2011 06:07 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

I wouldn't be too quick to attribute democratic virtue to Athens, however. Slavery was the disease of the ancient world, and it existed in Attica, too. Less than 10% of adult Attic males were eligible to vote--slaves, "foreigners" and those who were not freeholders within Athens could not vote. So, for example, you could be a successful famer in Attica, the descendant of generations of successful farmers in Attica, but if you did not own property within the city, you could not vote. That despite the fact that the city determined policy for the entire state. Attica was the territory within which Athens was located.
Still it is hard to beat their ratio of representatives to voters of one to 250, and their habit of trying their representatives at the end of their terms of office... Understanding that when we had much less of resources we could afford one representative in our congress for every 30k, and now, under the influence of party, that number is fixed, and today the ratio exceeds one rep for 600+K though our resources have grown many times over; you can see how we have been robbed of the most essential part of representative government, and that is: representation...
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 May, 2011 08:00 am
@Fido,
Isn't one of the other problems with democracy that our representatives only seem to be concerned with the electorate when it comes to elections. For the rest of the time they're fairly free to do what they want
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 May, 2011 08:08 am
The establishment of "democracy" in Athens was nothing more than an expansion of the oligarchy. Property requirements for the franchise simply make the oligarchy plutocratic rather than aristocratic. England's first reform bill simply expanded a limited franchise based on property by a limited lessening of the property requirement. The best work of the first reform bill was the elimination of rotten boroughs--otherwise is was just a plutocratic expansion of the oligarchy.

It's hilarious to assert that trying people at the expiration of a term of office represents some democratic innovation at Athens. The Athenians were legendarily petty and suspicious with one another. To institutionalize back-stabbing hardly qualifies as some sort of democratic innovation.
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 May, 2011 08:58 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Isn't one of the other problems with democracy that our representatives only seem to be concerned with the electorate when it comes to elections. For the rest of the time they're fairly free to do what they want
They should be held responsible, and tried as Athens once did; but part of the problem of limiting representation is that they have already hung the jury... They Gerrimand their districts to give one party the edge by five percent consistently even when it puts them in danger of losing to some one even more radical left or right in the primaries... They may give the blacks or the other party a district with a 90% party majority so they can take five or six by a reliable margin... What ever they do, even if it means going agsint the majority in their districts they can mark up to principal... How about going back to the way we started, and sending everyone with overwhelming support and plenty of them and let them fight it out there as they should... If we really want democracy we have a long way to go, but having ever less representatives in ratio or ever more people is not going to get us there... They limited, the parties limited the number of representatives to make the house managable... Where does it say in the preamble of the constitution that managable government was ever the goal... I want government to manage our problems, and not be managed by the parties...
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 May, 2011 09:11 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

The establishment of "democracy" in Athens was nothing more than an expansion of the oligarchy. Property requirements for the franchise simply make the oligarchy plutocratic rather than aristocratic. England's first reform bill simply expanded a limited franchise based on property by a limited lessening of the property requirement. The best work of the first reform bill was the elimination of rotten boroughs--otherwise is was just a plutocratic expansion of the oligarchy.

It's hilarious to assert that trying people at the expiration of a term of office represents some democratic innovation at Athens. The Athenians were legendarily petty and suspicious with one another. To institutionalize back-stabbing hardly qualifies as some sort of democratic innovation.
Ya; and they did not always actually vote for candidates, but cast lots to decide who was going to lead, trusting in fate, but no less holding those in charge responible... Plato and his creation: Socrates though they had evidence enough in the surrounding people, did not have enough knowledge of democracy to judge it... They could not understand what they were seeing in the Illiad, for example... They could not understand how money corrupted the city and the people... One of the rich complained that you could not strike a slave on the street in Athens for fear you might hit a citizen... Just as in Rome, the slaves in one hand empoverished the free people... Just as in this land, political equality is impossible to maintain in the face of economic inequality, and economic equality is an essential element in any true democracy... Eventually the rich through the benefit of fortune begin to believe they are more worthy of office and leadership, and to some degree they are correct... It was the poor who led Athen into the Pelopennisian war... Why??? For the poor without hope, war always offers the hope of spoils and glories... They were dispossessed of all except their citiizenship, but they would have been better fighting for democracy at home rather than against tyranny abroad... Only when all the people are united, and all fighting for their commonwealth will they make good political descisions... When wealth meant education as it does today, it is far to easy to justigy the rabble democracy on the basis of their want of education...
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 May, 2011 09:27 am
@Fido,
Sounds like what's happening in all levels of government; money = corruption.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 May, 2011 10:47 am
I suggest, not without historical support, that what lead Athens into the Peloponnesia war was the invasion of Attica by Sparta and her allies. But don't let me spoil your fun.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 May, 2011 11:22 am
@Setanta,
Oh we won't Setanta. You needn't worry about that.

I think Plato's idealistic utopias resulted from a search for something, anything, different stemming from his disgust at his much admired teacher being sentenced to death for corrupting the youth with enquiries into the scientific method.
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 May, 2011 06:29 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

I suggest, not without historical support, that what lead Athens into the Peloponnesia war was the invasion of Attica by Sparta and her allies. But don't let me spoil your fun.
Don't confuse the bigining with the causes that led up to it... Athens was all over the nediteranian supporting democratic forces against oligarchic which were Sparta's natural allies... The condition of landless free men in some of those city states was little better than that of a slave... In fact, one of Plato's dialogues deals with just such an issue, where a son brings his father before the court in Athens for the killing of a free man who had killed the father's slave... It was not to convict the father, in all likelyhood, but to clear him of possible charges in the future...
Throughout Hellas the rich who had gained control of their economies and so, all of the propert,y simply wanted all the rights to government, as occured in our own middle ages... The effect is the same here, where money is a necessity to turn the head of government, and the people are divided on purpose between the parties, unable to act effectively in defense of their own rights... The situation is unlikely to get better until it gets much worse, and cannot get much worse without destroying us...
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 May, 2011 06:33 am
@Fido,
You're living in fantasy land. Read up on the Delian League sometime. Athens was increasingly tyrannical, leading to the revolt of the hegemonic clients they had co-opted. Those people, who ought to have been their allies, were enraged at generations of being mulcted to support the Athenian empire, and they responded by standing aside as Athens was brought down, in those cases in which they didn't actually join in the attack.

You just make this **** up as you go along, don't you? Thanks for the laughs, Bubba.
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 May, 2011 06:34 am
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

Oh we won't Setanta. You needn't worry about that.

I think Plato's idealistic utopias resulted from a search for something, anything, different stemming from his disgust at his much admired teacher being sentenced to death for corrupting the youth with enquiries into the scientific method.
They did not kill him for that, and they had every right to kill him for his pro spartan behavior... I think it may have also had something to do with him and his friends knocking the dinks off all the Hermes statues which was thought to have doomed one Athenian adventure... Been a while, but next log on I can try to tell which one...
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 May, 2011 06:47 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

You're living in fantasy land. Read up on the Delian League sometime. Athens was increasingly tyrannical, leading to the revolt of the hegemonic clients they had co-opted. Those people, who ought to have been their allies, were enraged at generations of being mulcted to support the Athenian empire, and they responded by standing aside as Athens was brought down, in those cases in which they didn't actually join in the attack.

You just make this **** up as you go along, don't you? Thanks for the laughs, Bubba.
I agree with much of what you say... Yet the way that was expressed was in radical democracy... The democratic element found their position deteriorating in Athens, but made the fight for it abroad, much as we are doing today when in fact, the fight should be made here... It is those with the money who most resisted seeing it go to Athens, and in Athens that was the very group that had the most to lose by war, and who resisted it the most..

I have a good book on the subject I would recommend, called a War like No Other... And it did come as close to total war as can be imagined... And while the System of government enjoyed by Sparta did give it some advantages as a slave state, inevitably, its cruelty to even its own people and the enemies it made with its successes doomed it... Think of it: Ten Helots for every man woman and child Spartan, and doomed by a constitution no one could change... That is what our world will look like some day, when all those little people who once tipped their hats to us instead resist us and fight us at every opportunity...
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2011 09:18 am
The concept of philosopher-king, as described in Plato's Republic sounds very elitist and expresses contempt for the common masses.
Quote:
“Unless,” said I, “either philosophers become kings in our states or those whom we now call our kings and rulers take to the pursuit of philosophy seriously and adequately, and there is a conjunction of these two things, political power and philosophic intelligence, while the motley horde of the natures who at present pursue either apart from the other are compulsorily excluded, there can be no cessation of troubles, dear Glaucon, for our states, nor, I fancy, for the human race either. Nor, until this happens, will this constitution which we have been expounding in theory ever be put into practice within the limits of possibility and see the light of the sun."
-The Republic, 473
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2011 10:32 am
@wandeljw,
I don't see how anybody can object to that wande. The advice was ignored and there has been no cessation of troubles. What might have looked like cessations were only re-tooling intervals. And there have been no cessations at all in the class and sexual politics sections.

I think the NCSE takes the same position although it only usually shows itself in it's subscribers and other dupes. The "motley crew" and the "common masses" are often castigated on the evolution threads in only slightly less plain terms. Three times in the last 24 hours at least. I might have forgotten some. It's the general subtext anyway.

It isn't actually a bad thing in principle. Huxley has a version in BNW. We look to be in transition towards it. Elections being spectacles in essence these days. As if we can find the best leaders in a pool shrunk down to the last few who have no skeletons in their cupboards. Christianised skeletons at that.

When I think of the number of ladies who would dart out of the shadows if they saw me making a State of the Union speech I realise I wouldn't get past the first vetting stage.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  2  
Reply Thu 12 May, 2011 11:39 am
In Plato's Republic, only a select few are wise enough to rule. This select few is able to stay aloof from the "madness of the multitude."

Quote:
And when persons who are unworthy of education approach philosophy and make an alliance with her who is in a rank above them, what sort of ideas and opinions are likely to be generated? Will they not be sophisms captivating to the ear, having nothing in them genuine, or worthy of or akin to true wisdom?

No doubt, he said.

Then, Adeimantus, I said, the worthy disciples of philosophy will be but a small remnant: perchance some noble and well-educated person, detained by exile in her service, who in the absence of corrupting influences remains devoted to her; or some lofty soul born in a mean city, the politics of which he contemns and neglects; and there may be a gifted few who leave the arts, which they justly despise, and come to her;—or peradventure there are some who are restrained by our friend Theages’ bridle; for everything in the life of Theages conspired to divert him from philosophy; but ill-health kept him away from politics. My own case of the internal sign is hardly worth mentioning, for rarely, if ever, has such a monitor been given to any other man. Those who belong to this small class have tasted how sweet and blessed a possession philosophy is, and have also seen enough of the madness of the multitude; and they know that no politician is honest, nor is there any champion of justice at whose side they may fight and be saved. Such an one may be compared to a man who has fallen among wild beasts—he will not join in the wickedness of his fellows, but neither is he able singly to resist all their fierce natures, and therefore seeing that he would be of no use to the State or to his friends, and reflecting that he would have to throw away his life without doing any good either to himself or others, he holds his peace, and goes his own way. He is like one who, in the storm of dust and sleet which the driving wind hurries along, retires under the shelter of a wall; and seeing the rest of mankind full of wickedness, he is content, if only he can live his own life and be pure from evil or unrighteousness, and depart in peace and good-will, with bright hopes.
-The Republic, 496
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  2  
Reply Fri 13 May, 2011 09:31 am
In Plato's Republic, radical measures are proposed to establish an ideal state. The policies seem designed to kill individualism.

Quote:
They will begin by sending out into the country all the inhabitants of the city who are more than ten years old, and will take possession of their children, who will be unaffected by the habits of their parents; these they will train in their own habits and laws, I mean in the laws which we have given them: and in this way the State and constitution of which we were speaking will soonest and most easily attain happiness, and the nation which has such a constitution will gain most.
-The Republic, 541
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 May, 2011 09:37 am
What is also interesting in that passage is that those who do not dwell in the city are not considered to be a part of the state--they are not citizens. That was typical of the world of the Mediterranean in that era, q.v. the denial of the franchise to anyone in Attica who was not a freeholder of the city of Athens. Initially, the same circumstance held in Rome. Later, citizenship was extended well beyond the city of Rome, but that was in the principiate empire, when for the purposes of practical politics, it no longer mattered.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 May, 2011 09:44 am
@Setanta,
What's the difference between that and releasing the mighty Mississippi onto the farmlands to save the city which is what CBS reported is about to happen shortly. Presumably because the city fathers skimped the levees or took a chance on there being no "once-in-a-century" flooding while they were in office.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 May, 2011 05:28 pm
@spendius,
They opened the spillwater sluice on our TV tonight.

Which places "that those who do not dwell in the city are not considered to be a part of the state--they are not citizens" in a proper historical perspective.

The rule of the city has been the cause of the demise of every civilisation so far. Which is something Plato had no knowledge of. Plato's Republic proposes its own extiction.

 

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